Hi Dave

I need to apologize. I didn’t read your article on The Prophesy of Joel. Goodness, I really thought you were quoting some book on Joel published by Christendom . There is actually a book on Joel out there...witch I downloaded, and commented on as my response to you...., silly me.

In the meantime though, I read through your article on Joel. Compelling article I must say. Keep up the good bible study habits.

I read the whole Watchtower article including the April 15 2009 one too.

In your article you said:

“The 1984 NWT lists the four as the caterpillar, the locust, the creeping unwinged locust, and the cockroach. That clearly describes differing attacks by different enemies.”

I honestly think you’re reading too much into that verse.

“And I will make compensation to YOU for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among YOU.” (Joel 2:25)

One could easily say that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust are one and the same / represent one and the same thing. Then there are the other two. The cockroach and the caterpillar.

I guess I can see why you reason that way. But still, when you say….

‘ That clearly describes differing attacks by different enemies. ’

It isn’t as “clear” as you would like it to be - at least not for me. The locust, cockroach and caterpillar could easily make up “a nation”,... Right?

Joel 2:1. “That verse is a reminder that "the day of Jehovah", Armageddon, is coming .”

Agreed.

It is not referring to "a military attack" that occurred at some time in our history…..

Your opinion.

I would say that this accurately predicted the time when Nebuchadnezzar and his armies came into Jerusalem and “destroyed everything of value.” Babylon invaded and utterly destroyed Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem remained desolate until 70 years had passed, until 537 B.C.E. when the Jews returned to their homeland.—2 Chronicles 36:17-19.

I think it could be compared to how Jesus chose that Jew, Saul, instead of a Christian, to take such a prominent role.

Saul was attacking his people and Jesus was not happy with him.

But instead of punishing him, Jesus made himself known to Saul. (Acts 9:3-5)

Then he used him to carry out tough, dangerous work for the rest of his life. (2Co 2:4, 5, 9)

I think it is similar with the Jews.

Jehovah is not happy with the Jews. (Daniel 9:3-19)

Jehovah will make Himself know to the Jews. (Joel 2:27)

Those who proclaim the message of doom will no doubt suffer for it, like Paul did.

Goodness Dave! This sounds like a desperate move to support your “Jew chosen ones” theory.

(w00 1/15 p. 27-28) "Suddenly about midday, a light brighter than the sun flashed around Saul, and he fell to the ground. He heard a voice say to him in Hebrew: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? To keep kicking against the goads makes it hard for you.” “Who are you, Lord?,” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” came the reply. “Nevertheless, rise and stand on your feet. For to this end I have made myself visible to you, in order to choose you as an attendant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I shall make you see respecting me; while I deliver you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you.” (emphasis mine)

To know exactly why the lord Jesus choose Paul we’ll have to ask him. But here’s one theory:

(it-2 p. 585) "Paul was born in Tarsus, a prominent city of Cilicia. (Ac 21:39; 22:3) His parents were Hebrews and evidently adhered to the Pharisaic branch of Judaism. (Ac 23:6; Php 3:5) He was a Roman citizen from birth (Ac 22:28), his father having perhaps been granted citizenship for services rendered. Paul probably learned the trade of tentmaker from his father. (Ac 18:3) But, at Jerusalem, he received instruction from the learned Pharisee Gamaliel, suggesting that Paul was from a prominent family. (Ac 22:3; 5:34) Language wise, Paul was versed at least in Greek and Hebrew. (Ac 21:37-40) At the time that Paul traveled as a missionary, he was unmarried. (1Co 7:8) During this general period, if not already earlier, he had a sister and a nephew who resided in Jerusalem.—Ac 23:16-22."

Someone with such credentials could’ve been of great value to the growing Christian congregation don’t you think ? Saul (Paul) was very zealous in his beliefs and actions. Those attributes may have been influential in Jesus’ selection of his then opposer for this calling.

The Jews were rejected as Jah's chosen people long ago Dave.

(w80 10/1 p. 21) Jesus was born under the Jewish Law covenant as mediated by the prophet Moses. When Jesus got baptized and anointed with holy spirit, he became the Mediator of a new covenant that was to be made with spiritual Jews, or Israelites. This spelled the “last days” for the Jewish Law covenant and the Jewish system that revolved around the Herodian temple there at Jerusalem. When Jesus ascended to heaven as Mediator between God and his disciples, the new covenant was sealed with the value of the blood of his perfect human sacrifice. The proof of this was given on that marvelous day of Pentecost with the outpouring of the holy spirit, which produced spiritual Israelites with whom to make the new covenant. At one and the same time this blotted out, canceled, the old Law covenant with fleshly Israel. (Eph. 2:15, 16; Col. 2:13, 14) But God’s special favor was prolonged toward the Jews for three and a half years more, till autumn of 36 C.E. (emphasis added)

In conclusion. I think our teaching on the prophesy of Joel is sound. This is a self correcting organization. The GB is a self correcting body. If any adjustments need to be made, it will be. As you know.

Your Brother

E

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(07-06-2020)

Thanks for responding again E.

(note: previous response by E is in "Message of Doom - comments". But since the response this time is all about the Prophecy of Joel article, i placed it here.)

In your article you said:

“The 1984 NWT lists the four as the caterpillar, the locust, the creeping unwinged locust, and the cockroach. That clearly describes differing attacks by different enemies.”

I honestly think you’re reading too much into that verse. (Joel 1:4)

If you look at the original Hebrew there are four distinct names used to describe the types of locusts: gazam, arbeh, yeleq, and chasil

Joel spoke of four different types for a reason. And he said that the next one that came ate what the previous one left behind, not that one came back again and again to eat what it didn't eat the previous times it was there.

I think your pre-formed theories are blocking you from seeing what that verse is telling you. :^)

“And I will make compensation to YOU for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among YOU.” (Joel 2:25)

One could easily say that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust are one and the same / represent one and the same thing. Then there are the other two. The cockroach and the caterpillar.

Perhaps. Jeremiah 16:16 refers to two attacking armies, who attack at different times. I think that could refer to the attacks on Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. and then in 70 C.E. The attack by the "fishermen" is terrible, and the later attack by the "hunter" is even worse and more widespread. That aligns with 607 B.C.E. and 70 C.E. But Jeremiah is only describing those two attacks, while Joel is telling us about a long history of attacks on the Israelites.

I guess I can see why you reason that way. But still, when you say….

‘ That clearly describes differing attacks by different enemies. ’

It isn’t as “clear” as you would like it to be - at least not for me. The locust, cockroach and caterpillar could easily make up “a nation”,... Right?

They could, but then for the prophecy to correctly come true, that same nation would have to attack Israel four times and at different times.

(Joel 1:4) What was left by the devouring locust, the swarming locust has eaten; And what was left by the swarming locust, the unwinged locust has eaten; And what the unwinged locust has left, the voracious locust has eaten.

Joel 2:1. “That verse is a reminder that "the day of Jehovah", Armageddon, is coming .”

Agreed.

It is not referring to "a military attack" that occurred at some time in our history…..

Your opinion.

Well if Joel 2:1 is referring to Armageddon, as you agree it is, then "it is not referring to a military attack that occurred at some time in our history," and therefore it is also "your opinion." :^)

I would say that this accurately predicted the time when Nebuchadnezzar and his armies came into Jerusalem and “destroyed everything of value.” Babylon invaded and utterly destroyed Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem remained desolate until 70 years had passed, until 537 B.C.E. when the Jews returned to their homeland.—2 Chronicles 36:17-19.

I am going to assume that you are still referring to Joel 2:1. Note what that verse says:

(Joel 2:1) “Blow a horn in Zion! Shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of Jehovah is coming! It is near!

Joel is saying to blow a horn, shout a war cry, and tremble. Why? "For" or because the day of Jehovah is coming. So Joel 2:1 seems to me to be all about Armageddon.

I think it could be compared to how Jesus chose that Jew, Saul, instead of a Christian, to take such a prominent role.

Saul was attacking his people and Jesus was not happy with him.

But instead of punishing him, Jesus made himself known to Saul. (Acts 9:3-5)

Then he used him to carry out tough, dangerous work for the rest of his life. (2Co 2:4, 5, 9)

I think it is similar with the Jews.

Jehovah is not happy with the Jews. (Daniel 9:3-19)

Jehovah will make Himself know to the Jews. (Joel 2:27)

Those who proclaim the message of doom will no doubt suffer for it, like Paul did.

Goodness Dave! This sounds like a desperate move to support your “Jew chosen ones” theory.

Let's read what the scriptures say on this topic:

(Isaiah 59:20-21) “To Zion the Repurchaser will come, To those in Jacob who turn from transgression,”(Jews) declares Jehovah. ²¹ “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says Jehovah. “My spirit that is on you and my words that I have placed in your mouth—they will not be removed from your mouth, from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your grandchildren,” says Jehovah, “from now on and forever.”

(Jeremiah 31:31-40) “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. ³² It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” ³³ “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.” ³⁴ “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.” ³⁵ This is what Jehovah says, Who gives the sun for light by day, The laws of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea and makes its waves boisterous, Whose name is Jehovah of armies: ³⁶ “‘If these regulations should ever fail,’ declares Jehovah, ‘Only then would the offspring of Israel cease as a nation before me always.’” ³⁷ This is what Jehovah says: “‘If the heavens above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be explored, only then could I reject all the offspring of Israel for all they have done,’ declares Jehovah.” ³⁸ “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when the city will be built to Jehovah from the Tower of Ha·nanʹel to the Corner Gate. ³⁹ And the measuring line will go out straight ahead to the hill of Gaʹreb, and it will turn toward Goʹah. ⁴⁰ And all the valley of the carcasses and of ashes and all the terraces as far as the Kidʹron Valley, clear to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, will be something holy to Jehovah. It will never again be uprooted or torn down.”

(Mt 10:6) but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Mt 15:24) He answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

(Matthew 23:37-39) “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. ³⁸ Look! Your house is abandoned to you. ³⁹ For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

(John 4:22) You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews.

(Hebrews 8:8) For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant.

(Romans 11:1, 2a) I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. ² God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.

(Romans 9:4) who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises.

(Romans 11:13-26) ¹³ Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. (Non-Jews) Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry ¹⁴ to see if I may in some way incite my own people (Jews) to jealousy and save some from among them. ¹⁵ For if their being cast away means reconciliation for the world, what will the acceptance of them mean but life from the dead? ¹⁶ Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.

¹⁷ However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, (Non-Jew) were grafted in among them (Jews) and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, ¹⁸ do not be arrogant toward the branches. ("We are the chosen ones, not them.") If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you. ¹⁹ You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” ²⁰ That is true! For their lack of faith, they (unreceptive Jews) were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. ²¹ For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. ²² Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those (Jews) who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. ²³ And they also, if they (Jews) do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. ²⁴ For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their (Jews) own olive tree!

²⁵ For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, ²⁶ and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. ²⁷ And this is my covenant with them, when I take their sins away.” ²⁸ True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; (Jews who rejected Christianity) but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. ²⁹ For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. ³⁰ For just as you were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, ³¹ so also these (Jews) now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to you, so that they themselves may also now be shown mercy. ³² For God has confined all of them (Jews) together in disobedience so that he might show all of them (Jews) mercy.

Why were the Jews punished for so long? (thousands of years)

Why do you punish your child?

To teach them not to do again, whatever it was they did that they shouldn't have.

Punishment is to teach them a lesson for the future.

Who are the Jews? (Ex 19:5; Joel 2:17; 3:2; De 9:26, 29; Ps 135:4)

How did the Jews sin?

Their status went to their head and they thought they were better than everyone else, even to the point of thinking that they didn't even need God. (among many other things)

Does God punish those that will be destroyed forever?

No. What would be the point of teaching them a lesson if they are going to be dead?

The same logic is used, in part, to disprove the Hellfire theory. Why would God punish (discipline) people forever in Hell? He wouldn't. That would be sadistic.

Why would God punish the Jews throughout history if they had no future to implement what they learned from their punishment? He wouldn't. But He did punish them, which means they do have a future where those lessons will be applied.

What future is that?

Their eternal life on earth after Armageddon.

So if the Jews were taught a lesson on arrogance (among other things), that means that Jehovah wants to make sure they don't fall back into that arrogance again.

Under what situation would the Jews have to be put (after Armageddon) for them to become arrogant again?

The continued position of being God's chosen people, His inheritance.

Jehovah tells us that He will not give up His inheritance. And no one can take His inheritance away from Him. Which means the Jews will remain His chosen people after Armageddon, as the above scriptures point out. (Isa 43:21)

Like the priests of old, i think that the Jews will have duties to perform after Armageddon, such as listed in the following scriptures:

(Eze 39:9-16) The inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons—the bucklers and shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and lances. And they will use them to light fires for seven years. ¹⁰ They will not need to take wood from the field or gather firewood from the forests because they will use the weapons to light fires.’

“‘They will take spoil from those who despoiled them and plunder from those who had been plundering them,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

¹¹ “‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the sea, and it will block the path of those passing through. That is where they will bury Gog and all his hordes, and they will call it the Valley of Hamon-Gog. ¹² The house of Israel will spend seven months burying them in order to cleanse the land. ¹³ All the people of the land will work at burying them, and this will bring them fame in the day that I glorify myself,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

¹⁴ “‘Men will be assigned to pass through the land constantly and bury the bodies left remaining on the surface of the earth, in order to cleanse it. They will continue the search for seven months. ¹⁵ When those who pass through the land see a human bone, they will set up a marker beside it. Then those assigned to do the burying will bury it in the Valley of Hamon-Gog. ¹⁶ And there will also be a city there named Ha·moʹnah. And they will cleanse the land.’

(Joel 3:20, 21) But Judah will always be inhabited, And Jerusalem to generation after generation. ²¹ I will consider innocent their blood (Jews) that I had not considered innocent; And Jehovah will reside in Zion.

(w00 1/15 p. 27-28) "Suddenly about midday, a light brighter than the sun flashed around Saul, and he fell to the ground. He heard a voice say to him in Hebrew: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? To keep kicking against the goads makes it hard for you.” “Who are you, Lord?,” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” came the reply. “Nevertheless, rise and stand on your feet. For to this end I have made myself visible to you, in order to choose you as an attendant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I shall make you see respecting me; while I deliver you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you.” (emphasis mine)

To know exactly why the lord Jesus choose Paul we’ll have to ask him. But here’s one theory:

(it-2 p. 585) "Paul was born in Tarsus, a prominent city of Cilicia. (Ac 21:39; 22:3) His parents were Hebrews and evidently adhered to the Pharisaic branch of Judaism. (Ac 23:6; Php 3:5) He was a Roman citizen from birth (Ac 22:28), his father having perhaps been granted citizenship for services rendered. Paul probably learned the trade of tentmaker from his father. (Ac 18:3) But, at Jerusalem, he received instruction from the learned Pharisee Gamaliel, suggesting that Paul was from a prominent family. (Ac 22:3; 5:34) Language wise, Paul was versed at least in Greek and Hebrew. (Ac 21:37-40) At the time that Paul traveled as a missionary, he was unmarried. (1Co 7:8) During this general period, if not already earlier, he had a sister and a nephew who resided in Jerusalem.—Ac 23:16-22."

Someone with such credentials could’ve been of great value to the growing Christian congregation don’t you think ? Saul (Paul) was very zealous in his beliefs and actions. Those attributes may have been influential in Jesus’ selection of his then opposer for this calling.

(1 Samuel 16:11-13) Finally Samuel said to Jesʹse: “Are these all of your boys?” To this he said: “The youngest has been left out until now; he is pasturing the sheep.” Then Samuel said to Jesʹse: “Send for him, because we will not sit down for the meal until he comes here.” ¹² So he sent for him and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes, and handsome in appearance. Then Jehovah said: “Get up, anoint him, for this is the one!” ¹³ So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers. And the spirit of Jehovah began to empower David from that day forward. Samuel later rose and went his way to Raʹmah.

(Amos 7:14, 15) Then Aʹmos answered Am·a·ziʹah: “I was not a prophet nor the son of a prophet; but I was a herdsman, and I took care of sycamore fig trees. ¹⁵ But Jehovah took me away from following the flock, and Jehovah said to me, ‘Go, prophesy to my people Israel.’

(Exodus 4:15) So you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with you and him as you speak, and I will teach you men what to do.

The Jews were rejected as Jah's chosen people long ago Dave.

(w80 10/1 p. 21) Jesus was born under the Jewish Law covenant as mediated by the prophet Moses. When Jesus got baptized and anointed with holy spirit, he became the Mediator of a new covenant that was to be made with spiritual Jews, or Israelites. This spelled the “last days” for the Jewish Law covenant and the Jewish system that revolved around the Herodian temple there at Jerusalem. When Jesus ascended to heaven as Mediator between God and his disciples, the new covenant was sealed with the value of the blood of his perfect human sacrifice. The proof of this was given on that marvelous day of Pentecost with the outpouring of the holy spirit, which produced spiritual Israelites with whom to make the new covenant. At one and the same time this blotted out, canceled, the old Law covenant with fleshly Israel. (Eph. 2:15, 16; Col. 2:13, 14) But God’s special favor was prolonged toward the Jews for three and a half years more, till autumn of 36 C.E. (emphasis added)

I think the scriptures i quoted above counter that theory, but let's look at the referenced scriptures used in that article to back up those statements and see what they say.

(Ephesians 2:15, 16) By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, ¹⁶ and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.

Those verses are talking about how the "people of the nations," (Eph 2:11) non-Jews, were made "members of the house of God." (Eph 2:19) As Paul points out in Romans chapter 11, they were grafted in to the Jewish olive tree. This was able to be done by the abolishing of the "decrees".

(Colossians 2:13, 14) Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses ¹⁴ and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

Those verses also refer to the erasing of the "decrees". But as Jeremiah 31:31-34 points out, Jehovah will make a new covenant with "the house of Israel". One that will last forever.

So neither of those scriptural references back up that theory.

In conclusion. I think our teaching on the prophesy of Joel is sound. This is a self correcting organization. The GB is a self correcting body. If any adjustments need to be made, it will be. As you know..

Yes, and the light doesn't get brighter until current thinking is questioned. And as the FDS say: "Jehovah’s spirit works with equal force in those who have the hope of living forever on earth." (w16.01 p. 20 par. 15)

Your Brother

E

Thanks again for responding E!
I look forward to hearing from you again.

:^)
Dave

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