Other Sheep - Comments

(from J)

Hello Brother Dave,

 I appreciate a lot of your enthusiasm in biblical research and personal study especially your help for those in need in your congregation and to the others who will benefit from the files in your database. I found something great article in your site that is about the “other sheep”. I know you’ve done a lot of research for this one and a lot of grammatical or etymological basis. Concerning this, I just want to remind you of the importance of reviewing the message of John 10:16 which says that  “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

I researched regarding this topic and with a combination of prayer and other articles from the Governing Body, it is more clear to conclude that this verse is the best basis itself in reference to the topic – answering who is the other sheep in our day. It could become the principal bible text for the subject.

I will simply it this way:

-       “And I have other sheep” – Jesus describes those persons as other “sheep”, in contrasts with goats (sheep are best known in following to the voice of their shepherd), so for simplicity – they are followers of Christ, baptized Christians

-       “which are not of this fold” – Based on the context of John Chapter 10 Jesus is referring to first Christians (which are anointed Christians) extending to 144000. How come? Jesus death opens the way for the New Covenant and this is between Jehovah and the Israel of God which is the 144000. They are also called “little flock” In the book of Luke 12:32.

To explain:

-       Your research concludes that there must be only one flock of Christians right? That the anointed and earthly Christians are all in one flock, so you conclude that the other flock are those are not JW who wants to follow bible. Perhaps you are right and perhaps not.

-       SHEEP FOLLOWS THE VOICE OF SHEPHERD – Those who do not belong to God’s organization cannot follow the Christ, or there is no proof they are following him at all. Following the Christ right now means to help his brothers on earth (remnants of 144000) to preach the good news of the Kingdom, whereas all those who loyally support Christ’s brothers will inherit the life under Kingdom Government as stated in Matthew Chapter 25 (Jesus calling them sheep). Conclusion: Non-JW cannot be called “sheep” at all as long as they don’t support Christ brothers and following Christ starting on baptism, and then adhering the king’s command to preach.

-       JOHN 10:16 IS SIMPLY A LOGICAL TIMELINE-LIKE DESCRIPTION OF CHRISTIAN HISTORY

(1)    “ AND I HAVE…”  -  USING THE WORDS “AND I HAVE”, SIMPLY MAKE US REMEMBER THAT IN THE HISTORY, THE NUMBER OF ANOINTED CHRISTIANS STARTS FROM THE FIRST CHRISTIANS IN THE FIRST CENTURY FROM THE ANOINTMENT OF 120 DISCIPLES IN PENTECOST OF 33 CE, AND THEN FOLLOWED BY THOSE  GREAT CROWD THAT HAVE EARTHLY HOPE FOR LIVING IN PARADISE EARTH.

(2)    “NOT OF THIS FOLD” -  ANOINTED CHRISTIANS, ARE THE ONES GIVEN THE CALLING AS “LITTLE FLOCK” , AND KINGDOM WAS GIVEN TO THEM (LUKE 12:32)… SO NOT OF THIS FOLD IS SIMPLY A SIMPLE TRUTH: KINGDOM WAS GIVEN TO A “LITTLE FLOCK” OF ANOINTED CHRISTIANS, AND THOSE OTHER SHEEP WILL NOT BE PART OF THE KINGDOM RULERS IN LUKE 12:32. THIS TRUTH WAS MADE KNOWN TO GOD’S SERVANTS ON THE MID 1930’S OF OUR TIME, AND THAT REVELATION WAS SO HISTORICAL. (REVELATION 7:13,14)

(3)    “THEY WILL LISTEN TO MY VOICE” – THOSE “OTHER SHEEP” WILL BE INSIDE GOD’S ORGANIZATION NOT IN CHRISTENDOM, IN ORDER TO LISTEN TO THE RIGHT VOICE.

(4)    “THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK” – THIS IS THE TURNING POINT OF THE HISTORY – JUST LIKE A TIMELINE, JESUS IS TELLING THE ANOINTED CHRISTIANS WILL BE AT FIRST A SIMPLE LITTLE FLOCK, WITH HEAVENLY HOPE IN ITS OWN, BUT AFTER INTRODUCTION OF THE OTHER SHEEP, JESUS POINTS OUT THAT AT SOME POINT IN TIME, “THEY WILL BECOME ONE” … SO WHAT DOES THIS REALLY MEAN? WE NEED TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS FIRST TO HAVE THE RIGHT CONCLUSION:

a.       WHY DID JESUS DESCRIBE 144000 AS “LITTLE FLOCK”? OTHER THAN BEING SMALLER NUMBER COMPARE TO THE WHOLE ASSOCIATION OF THOSE WILL LEAVE FOREVER ON EARTH, OR TO BE COMPARED IN THE NUMBER OF HUMANS ALIVE IN THAT TIME – THIS IS ACTUALLY A TERM APPLICABLE TO THEM DURING THAT TIME. JESUS WAS A GREAT TEACHER – HE CANNOT TELL THEM THE NUMBERS OF THOSE CHRISTIANS WITH THE HEAVENLY HOPE, BUT THE MAIN REASON OF HIS TEACHINGS IS TO FIND JEHOVAH’S LOST SHEEP THAT WILL BE “CO-RULERS” WITH CHRIST FOR THE ISRAEL OF GOD. (MATTHEW 15:24; LUKE 4:43) SO IN THE MOST SIMPLEST SENSE AND TERMS, HE MUST TEACH THAT THERE IS A GROUP OF FOLLOWERS THAT WILL BE KINGDOM RULERS – TO SIMPLIFY, JESUS USED THE TERM “FLOCK” TO POINT OUT THAT THIS IS A GROUP IN UNITY, NOT SCATTERED, WITHOUT SECTS. HE IS SIMPLY POINTING OUT A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT WILL RULE FOR THE KINGDOM, PERTAINING TO THEIR SIMILAR HOPE.

b.      “THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK” – JESUS SIMPLY STATING, ‘THEY HAVE DIFFERENT HOPE, NOT PART OF THE FOLD OF ANOINTED CHRISTIANS, BUT THEY WILL BECOME ONE UNITED GROUP OF WORSHIPPERS’ DO WE HAVE A BASIS ON THIS? DURING EZEKIELS TIME, HE WAS GIVEN TASK TO PROPHECY REGARDING THE 10 NORTHERN TRIBES KINGDOM WILL BE UNITED WITH THE TWO TRIBE KINGDOM OF JUDAH. NORTHERN TRIBE (MIRRORING FUTURE EARTHLY CHRISTIANS/SINCE NO LEVITE SUPPORT NOR DAVIDIC KINGSHIP) WILL BE ONE NATION WITH SOUTHERN KINGDOM OF JUDAH (MIRRORING ANOINTED CHRISTIANS SINCE THEY ARE DAVIDIC KINGSHIP AND WITH SUPPORT OF THE LEVITES) … WE WILL LEARN FIRST (1) BEFORE THE DIVIDED KINGDOM, ISRAEL IS ONE NATION WORSHIPPING ONE GOD, WITH ONE RELIGION UNDER THE FIRST YEARS OF SOLOMON’S REIGN. (2) AFTER THE EXILE, THEY WILL BECOME ONE NATION AGAIN (SINCE MOST OF THEM THAT TIME CALLED THOSE REPENTANT JEWS WITH EZRA AND NEHEMIAH, BUILDING THE TEMPLE AGAIN IN JERUSALEM). (EZEKIAL 37:19) SO THAT WOULD MEAN IN THE FUTURE, IT IS WRONG TO CONCLUDE THAT THE “OTHER SHEEP” WILL COME FROM OTHER RELIGIONS, JUST LIKE THE MIRROR OF EZEKIEL’S PROPHECY, IT WILL BE THE EARTHLY CHRISTIANS WORSHIPPING SAME GOD PRACTICING SAME RELIGION WILL BE IN ONE WITH ANOINTED CHRISTIANS IN ONE UNIFIED SPIRITUAL ORGANIZATION.

SUMMARY:  THE TERM “LITTLE FLOCK” WAS USED BY CHRIST WITH THE CONTEXT OF HOPE.

                                THE TERM “OTHER SHEEP” WAS USED BY CHRIST WITH THE CONTEXT OF HOPE.

                                BUT THE TERM “ONE FLOCK” WAS USED IN JOHN 10:16 IN THE CONTEXT OF UNITY, AND TO FULFILLMENT OF EZEKIEL’S PROPHECY REGARDING THE UNIFICATION OF THE TWO GROUP OF WORSHIPPERS WITH DIFFENT HOPES UNDER ONE LORD – CHRIST, FOR THE LAST DAYS.

                                                OTHER SHEEP CANNOT BE THE ONES FROM THE WORLD RELIGIONS OR CHRISTENDOM, SINCE FOLLOWING CHRIST IS AN ACTIVE SUPPORT OF HIS BROTHERS IN PREACHING WORK AND EVEN IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION ARMAGGEDON, AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF ANOINTED CHRISTIANS, EARTHLY CHRISTIANS ARE STILL CONSIDERED “SHEEP” WHEN THEY ARE JUDGED. (MATTHEW 25)

With the help of Faithful and Discreet Slave and Jehovah’s spirit, I hope we shall consider this important truth that in order to be saved, people must be an active supporter of Christ brothers in the last days.

Beloved Brother,

 (J)

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Hi (J)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Before you read my response please realize that text can seem cold and unfeeling, and that we sometimes apply negative emotions to them when none exists.

I write this with a happy heart and brotherly love though it may not show through in the text.

:^)

I appreciate a lot of your enthusiasm in biblical research and personal study especially your help for those in need in your congregation and to the others who will benefit from the files in your database. I found something great article in your site that is about the “other sheep”. I know you’ve done a lot of research for this one and a lot of grammatical or etymological basis. Concerning this, I just want to remind you of the importance of reviewing the message of John 10:16 which says that  “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

Thank you! Yes, that scripture is the backbone of my article.

I researched regarding this topic and with a combination of prayer and other articles from the Governing Body, it is more clear to conclude that this verse is the best basis itself in reference to the topic – answering who is the other sheep in our day. It could become the principal bible text for the subject.

I agree.

I will simply (put) it this way:

-       “And I have other sheep” – Jesus describes those persons as other “sheep”, in contrasts with goats (sheep are best known in following to the voice of their shepherd), so for simplicity – they are followers of Christ, baptized Christians

The scripture is not contrasting the "other sheep" with goats, but with the sheep that are in his fold.

-       “which are not of this fold” – Based on the context of John Chapter 10 Jesus is referring to first Christians (which are anointed Christians) extending to 144000. How come? Jesus death opens the way for the New Covenant and this is between Jehovah and the Israel of God which is the 144000. They are also called “little flock” In the book of Luke 12:32.

Please point out the contextual scriptures you are referring to. In verses 3, 4, 12, and 13 Christ refers to sheep that follow "hired men". Do you also consider those sheep to be of the anointed?

To explain:

-       Your research concludes that there must be only one flock of Christians right? That the anointed and earthly Christians are all in one flock, so you conclude that the other flock are those (who) are not JW's who want to follow the Bible. Perhaps you are right and perhaps not.

No, Christ was not speaking of one "flock" of Christians, but of one "fold" of Christians, which contains multiple flocks, each with their own shepherd which includes the "hired men". (John 10:12, 13) However Christ does say that the other sheep will join his sheep in his fold and "will become one flock." (John 10:16)

-       SHEEP FOLLOWS THE VOICE OF SHEPHERD – Those who do not belong to God’s organization cannot follow the Christ, or there is no proof they are following him at all. Following the Christ right now means to help his brothers on earth (remnants of 144000) to preach the good news of the Kingdom, whereas all those who loyally support Christ’s brothers will inherit the life under Kingdom Government as stated in Matthew Chapter 25 (Jesus calling them sheep). Conclusion: Non-JW cannot be called “sheep” at all as long as they don’t support Christ's brothers and following Christ starting on baptism, and then adhering (to) the king’s command to preach.

Christ calls them sheep, even though they are not yet of his fold, have not yet listened to his voice, and are not yet of the one flock:

(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

-       John 10:16 is simply a logical timeline-like description of Christian history –

(1)    “ and i have…”  -  using the words “and i have”, simply makes us remember that in the history, the number of anointed Christians starts from the first Christians in the first century from the anointment of 120 disciples in Pentecost of 33 CE, and then followed by those  great crowd that have earthly hope for living in paradise earth.

You are saying that the words “and I have" are referring to the anointed? Those words were spoken by Christ in the then present tense. He was referring to the "sheep" who were at that moment not part of his fold. Are you saying that the anointed were "not of" the fold that contained the sheep that listen to his voice? (John 10:3) And notice that he referred to them as "those", also showing that they were separate from the sheep in his fold.

(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in,

Also note that Christ spoke those words well before the 120 disciples were anointed, so when Christ said “and I have" there were no anointed Christians.

(2)    “not of this fold” -  anointed Christians, are the ones given the calling as “little flock”, and kingdom was given to them (Luke 12:32)… so "not of this fold" is simply a simple truth: kingdom was given to a “little flock” of anointed Christians, and those other sheep will not be part of the kingdom rulers in Luke 12:32. This truth was made known to god’s servants on the mid 1930’s of our time, and that revelation was so historical. (Revelation 7:13,14)

Yes, the anointed are a flock of their own, but they are still "of this fold" that has Christ as the door since they are part of the sheep that listen to his voice.

(3)    “they will listen to my voice” – those “other sheep” will be inside god’s organization not in Christendom, in order to listen to the right voice.

Yes that is true, once they do listen to his voice. But before they listen to his voice and become one flock, those other sheep "are" not yet of his fold. The word "are" is present tense. The word "will" refers to the future actions of those sheep.

(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(4)    “they will become one flock” – this is the turning point of the history – just like a timeline, Jesus is telling the anointed Christians will be at first a simple little flock, with heavenly hope in its own, but after introduction of the other sheep, Jesus points out that at some point in time, “they will become one” … so what does this really mean? We need to answer some questions first to have the right conclusion:

A.       Why did Jesus describe 144000 as “little flock”? Other than being smaller number compare to the whole association of those will leave forever on earth, or to be compared in the number of humans alive in that time – this is actually a term applicable to them during that time. Jesus was a great teacher – he cannot tell them the numbers of those Christians with the heavenly hope, but the main reason of his teachings is to find Jehovah's lost sheep that will be “co-rulers” with Christ for the Israel of god. (Matthew 15:24; Luke 4:43) so in the most simplest sense and terms, he must teach that there is a group of followers that will be kingdom rulers – to simplify, Jesus used the term “flock” to point out that this is a group in unity, not scattered, without sects. He is simply pointing out a group of people that will rule for the kingdom, pertaining to their similar hope.

Yes, the 144,000 are the little flock that will rule from heaven.

B.      “they will become one flock” – Jesus simply stating, ‘they have different hope, not part of the fold of anointed Christians, but they will become one united group of worshippers’ do we have a basis on this? During Ezekiel's time, he was given task to prophecy regarding the 10 northern tribes kingdom will be united with the two tribe kingdom of Judah. Northern tribe (mirroring future earthly Christians/since no Levite support nor Davidic kingship) will be one nation with southern kingdom of Judah (mirroring anointed Christians since they are Davidic kingship and with support of the Levites) … we will learn first (1) before the divided kingdom, Israel is one nation worshipping one god, with one religion under the first years of Solomon's reign. (2) after the exile, they will become one nation again (since most of them that time called those repentant Jews with Ezra and Nehemiah, building the temple again in Jerusalem). (Ezekiel 37:19) so that would mean in the future, it is wrong to conclude that the “other sheep” will come from other religions, just like the mirror of Ezekiel's prophecy, it will be the earthly Christians worshipping same god practicing same religion will be in one with anointed Christians in one unified spiritual organization.

What verses in John chapter 10 do you think imply that Christ is speaking of two different hopes?

Both the 10 and 2 tribes in Judah were Jews. They had the same religious beliefs; they are just different flocks in the one Jewish "fold" so to speak. In John 10:16 the "other sheep" come from outside of the "fold" that is listening to Christ's voice. So i don't think the comparison applies.

summary:  the term “little flock” was used by Christ with the context of hope.

                   the term “other sheep” was used by Christ with the context of hope.

but the term “one flock” was used in John 10:16 in the context of unity, and to fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the unification of the two group of worshippers with different hopes under one lord – Christ, for the last days.

Yes, hope and unity.

other sheep cannot be the ones from the world religions or Christendom, since following Christ is an active support of his brothers in preaching work and even in the great tribulation Armageddon, after the resurrection of anointed Christians, earthly Christians are still considered “sheep” when they are judged. (Matthew 25:32-40)

There are Jehovah's Witnesses who came from "world religions or Christendom" and have joined the flock within the fold that follows Christ's true teachings and actively support Christ's brothers. That matches up perfectly with what Christ said in verse 16:

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock"

Did you mean to say?: "other sheep cannot be the ones (who are in) the world religions or Christendom." If that is what you meant, you may be right if you apply it to the judgment at Armageddon. But also consider these scriptures regarding that topic: Pr 19:17; Mt 10:40; Mr 9:41; Re 18:4

With the help of (the) Faithful and Discreet Slave and Jehovah’s spirit, I hope we shall consider this important truth that in order to be saved, people must be an active supporter of Christ brothers in the last days.

Do you have scriptures to back up that "truth"?

How does Revelation 18:4 fit in with your assumption?

"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

But that topic is different from the discussion of John 10:1-16.

 Beloved Brother,

 (J)

:^)
Dave

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(from J)

Thank you brother Dave for giving time to read this from your inbox.

Just a little introduction:

● When I used the term “In contrast with goats” - actually, I'm not referring to the context. I'm not also connecting it to idea about anointed and other sheep itself. I'm just simply "adding" the fact that goats are not as obedient type of animal than sheep. Pointing out that sheeps are followers by nature. Sorry if it disturbs the real point of the explanation. I will do my best to be more precise and organized in the ideas this time.

These are the main points that probably we both knew:

(1) the shepherd - Jesus is the main shepherd of the sheepfold. (John 10:11)

(2) the door - Jesus is also the door. So to speak, Jesus is referring himself to another role: He is the door - one proof of being real shepherd is by entering this door in connection with other shepherds other than Jesus - the “fine shepherd”. [this will be tackled later on]

(3) doorkeeper - "The doorkeeper opens to this one [Christ, the shepherd]" (John 10:3) The New World Translation Revised 2013 reference this doorkeeper to John the Baptist, with these bible texts in the marginal reference: Luke 1:17 and John 8:28. In Verse 28 John said, "I am not the Christ. But I have been sent ahead of that one [Christ, the shepherd]". Jews are so familiar with this practice, having a doorkeeper with the sheepfold.

(4) The Fine Shepherd is unlike a hired man - In verses 12 and 13 of John Chapter 10, Jesus simply compares the difference between a shepherd and a hired men. He is pointing out He is "fine" type of Shepherd, who knows the sheep, and was known by the sheep, and cares for the sheep - even surrendering his life for it. The main reason of raising the idea about hired men is to highlight what true fine shepherd Jesus is - if we look at it. Verses 11 Jesus said "I am the fine shepherd", then he talked about hired men who really doesn't care about the sheep. and then going back to the main idea, Verses 14 again Jesus said, "I am the fine shepherd." Thus enclosing the whole idea.

The “stranger,” “thief,” “the hired man”: Apostates and false shepherds

- source: w80 7/15 pp. 22-28 The “Fine Shepherd” and His “Other Sheep”

False shepherd are selfish, they only care about what they could earn or getting paid for, unlike the fine shepherd who would rather die for the sake of the sheep. Likewise, Jehovah said to Prophet Hosea a warning to religious leaders who will be called to account (Hosea 4:9)

(5) How about the other shepherds when Jesus used the words "whoever enters through me" ? (John 10:9)

If the thief/stranger/intruders are all false religious leaders, then who is this legit shepherds? They enter the door, and they get saved (verse 9). In order for the reader to understand, the New World Translation Committee, connect this one with the scene where Jesus gave a task to Apostle Peter to take care of the sheep (John 21:17).

[as we could see in marginal reference in NWT Revised 2013]

Foremost, their task was from Jesus Christ, since they are proof to be legit shepherds who enter through the door. If this shepherds/elders do their tasks that was assigned to them, they likewise will be saved.

Concerning the big responsibility of a shepherd in the congregation, Paul instructed Timothy, "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you." - 1 Timothy 4:16

(6) Who is the "other sheep"?
Based on our history, millions of JW today historically came from different sorts of backgrounds and religions. I agree with that.

I understand that the article states the hypothesis that other sheep could be those people that is in progress in taking knowledge about bible truth from any JW that acts a shepherd because each of us teaching the same things from the bible with the unity of message.

● The article shows how Jehovah’s people, anointed or not, from FDS to kids, share the same bible language of truth. I agree with this unity in God’s organization.

Even Jehovah said, "For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language, So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah,

To serve him shoulder to shoulder."

(Zephaniah 3:9)

● The article points out that we could all be shepherds in a perspective that we all lead people towards the truth. We really lead people towards the truth.

(Proverbs 10:21) . . .The very lips of the righteous one keep pasturing many. . .

The idea that we lead people like a shepherd is true.

But the idea that John Chapter 10 is about that is somehow need to be tested.

It looks like that, yes, it really looks like that. That’s a great part of the truth - our lips pasture many. But John Chapter 10 is not just about unity of message from the lips of all JW that pastures many.

Identity of Other Sheep will be known if we study how John Chapter 10 Harmonize with other Prophecies

Let’s look out some points to review:

● Sheepfold -

In a community sheepfold, more than one flock might spend the night, and the doorkeeper would keep watch to protect the sheep. In the morning, the doorkeeper would open the door for the shepherds. Each shepherd would collect his flock by calling out to the sheep, and his sheep would recognize the voice of their shepherd and respond. (Joh 10:3-5) Jesus referred to this practice to illustrate the way he cared for his disciples.—Joh 10:7-14

( In NWT Revision 2013 marginal reference )

This is already an old practice for the Jews and practical for community to create big sheepfold were enough space for more than one flock.

● How many flocks inside the given sheepfold? We know that it was still called a sheepfold even without the sheep. (even based on your description of sheepfold). So it is not necessarily speaking that if there is a sheepfold, there is also a flock of sheep. Likewise, having a sheepfold doesn't necessarily mean there's a lot of flock inside it already. In John Chapter 10, it was not directly stated if how many flocks inside the sheepfold.

○ Current Understanding: We only answer this question when consider out of the context bible verse such as Luke 12:32. Although we know that anointed Christians are called "little flock." We are sure of that. Could it really be possible that Jesus means anointed Christians already in the fold and then followed by the coming of other sheep. Thus he will "bring in" this other sheep. If this is true then, that would mean the anointed ones and other Christians would become one flock in some point in time? If they become one flock, so in some point in time they are separated?

● Will that mean that anointed Christians and earthly Christians are separated in some point in history? To answer this question, let's see if Jesus really wanted to say a physical unification of separated groups, or just figurative unification, or both. We could know that by identifying how the bible represents the two groups in other biblical prophecies.

● What type of Separation? - Is there other biblical reference that points out that two groups of Christians based on hope are separated then unified?

● “Take Firm Hold of the Robe of a Jew. Based on Zechariah 8:23 we will read, "This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people."

■ We want to go with you - “a Jew” (refers to anointed Christians as a group, serving like a one unit) will be followed by “ten men out of all the languages” (refers to people of all the nations). These men says to “a Jew” that they wanted to with them. (more reference not included) Does this mean a physical unification? The people of all nations will join the anointed Christians!

■ "We have heard that God is with you" - So Christians with earthly hope will see the evidence that God is supporting anointed ones as a "group" and then will join them. Best example, is what happened to ancient Israel and Rahab of Jericho, who already was convinced from reports received that the God of Israel was “God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.” (Joshua 2:11) To make a parallelism, Israel of God today is the anointed group of Christians, and will be followed by rahab-like people not professing to be part of Spiritual Israel, will follow and ‘go with them’.

■ To explain further: Jehovah’s people in our day never discriminate one another in the context of hope. Never that happened that there is a sort of creation of Organization of Anointed and Organization of Paradise Settlers, then unified as one. That never happened in early history nor in the modern times! But the history proves the two groups are separated in time, and then gradually unified along with time. History shows the (1) anointed group nourishes first in Pentecost 33 C.E. until the (2) nourishment of the other sheep, in the last days. (some reference says mid 1930’s) when the number of those who profess to be anointed slightly decreases or almost not increasing , yet millions of people out of all nations joins the truth while not professing to be of anointed class. Today they are living Christians with different hopes but inside one organization.

■ To summarize: (1) The term "We want to go with you" - needs a separate condition first. (2) Just like proselytes, and also the situation of Rahab - people that are not part of Israel of God today joins the organization after hearing the good news.

If Zechariah’s Prophecy is the basis, then who are the other sheep?

If we will put the term "other sheep" in biblical dictionary, does the words "they are not anointed" is enough to describe them? No. How about "they are JW that are not anointed"? Almost there, but still not enough. How about, "in the last days, these are the ones who heard the good news of Kingdom and then put faith, then joined the unified God's organization"? Yes, this is how Zechariah’s Prophecy helps us understand the other sheep.

(From the article)

So the "other sheep" not of the "Christian" fold are therefore sheep of non-Christian folds. Though most Jehovah's Witnesses came from the churches of Christendom and therefore were never in the category of "other sheep", many can say that they used to be a part of some non-Christian religion in the world.

But how is this "one flock" also "one shepherd"? Since leading a sheep to pasture means leading them to the Bible, then all who teach the words of Jehovah and Christ Jesus are shepherds. That would include everyone from the FDS down to the publisher who studies with an interested one.

Other Sheep - article

Other Sheep - Help of Zechariah’s Prophecy and other sources

Sheep: Individuals of non-Christian Folds who in turn become Jehovah’s Witnesses

Sheep: Individuals of non-Christian Folds (probably non-JW if non-Christian religions will still be called hired men, since they also use their religion to gain selfish benefits) who in turn become Jehovah’s Witnesses but has an earthly hope

Fine Shepherd - Christ

Other Shepherds - all ministers of God’s Kingdom

● 1st “They” and 2nd “They” in John 10:16 Refers to combination of other sheep and the sheep in the fold, not to the other sheep alone. How? This will result to misinterpretation of the next meaning words “one flock” and “one shepherd”

“They”

● IF the word “They” refers to “other sheep” only thus will result in this conclusion: That would mean the other sheep will have its own flock inside the fold, and it will have its own shepherd. It will differ itself from the Fine Shepherd and its original sheep already in the fold. There will be two groups of sheeps inside the fold, (1) the original (2) the other sheep. Then two major shepherds. (1) the Fine Shepherd and (2) the “one shepherd” of “one flock” of other sheep. Which is not appropriate nor harmonizing in other bible truths.

● IF the word “They” refers to “other sheep” as individuals just as the article concludes in the hypothesis, having one shepherd (individual minister) and then a sheep (interested individual). Then it will result in two errors: (1) It will show that the other sheep are not yet baptized Christians since they are still in the condition of a student under the lead of one minister, thus you cannot call any baptized JW as other sheep at all. (2) In the contexts, Jesus would never think of a shepherd who has so few or one sheep, Jesus uses “one flock” under a shepherd. That is not applicable if the idea is each of us would become a shepherd.

● IF the word “They” refers to other sheep combined with the original sheep inside the fold. This will result to this: (1) Jesus is teaching about the unity that both “will” do same thing. They both, “will listen”, and “will become one flock”, under “one shepherd” (2) Where does the original Fine Shepherd go after the original sheep and other sheep combines? Yes, the Fine Shepherd is the “one shepherd” himself.

○ This conclusion harmonizes with Luke 12:32. The anointed is already a flock. Followed by the other sheep, they will join them and then they “will become one flock” still.

○ This conclusion harmonizes with Zechariah Prophecy: If we reconsider, men of nations will follow a Jew. Figuratively, then Jesus as the Fine Shepherd uses “a Jew” (the anointed) to lead his people. Then the men of nations will say “we want to go with you”

This is not totally wrong, it’s just an explanation of other sheep in other perspective.

This is somehow the same style of giving conclusions regarding 1914. We uses different bible texts from different bible parts, combining them to create conclusions, provided considering the contexts also. Finally, we check if this is in harmony with all other bible teachings.

The different type of hope was not directly mentioned in John 10:16.

Common: unification of two different groups

I agree that it was not directly mentioned the concept of anointed and great crowd in the context of John 10:16. But I will take it like a “piece” of the whole picture.

Although I don’t want to become dogmatic about this. The facts are like missing pieces from different scriptures will and then will complete the picture together to make one clear picture. Luke 12:32, Zechariah 8:23, and John 10:16 are different pieces of puzzles that could have different shapes but when put together could create a clear concept; and for a certain, their common message is the unification of two different parties or group. (to compare: the Daniel’s Prophecy and Revelation Prophecy regarding World Empires are not contradicting but complementary)

For more info, I also consider this article to be an important reference:

In our new publication Pure Worship - Restored at Last!

Becoming united is the focus

The prophecy does not describe one stick that is first torn in two and then later brought together as one. Rather, it describes two sticks that become united as one. Hence, the prophecy did not focus on how the nation of Israel became divided into two kingdoms. Rather, it focused on how the two kingdoms would become one.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102017941

So far this is the most latest updated publication that also contains reasonable explanation about other sheep.

Your beloved,

(J)

=======================================================================================

(from Me)

Thank you brother Dave for giving time to read this from your inbox.

Just a little introduction:

● When I used the term “In contrast with goats” - actually, I'm not referring to the context. I'm not also connecting it to idea about anointed and other sheep itself. I'm just simply "adding" the fact that goats are not as obedient type of animal than sheep. Pointing out that sheep are followers by nature. Sorry if it disturbs the real point of the explanation. I will do my best to be more precise and organized in the ideas this time.

No problem (J). I think that is why Christ just called them "other sheep" and not "my other sheep". Because they had the right mental attitude, but were not his followers yet.

These are the main points that probably we both knew:

(1) the shepherd - Jesus is the main shepherd of the sheepfold. (John 10:11)

In his illustration (John 10:1-16), Christ does not play the role of shepherd. He is the door and decides who can lead the sheep out to pasture.

Jesus calls himself a "fine shepherd", not in reference to him shepherding sheep, but in reference to the sacrifice of his life for the sheep. See page 3 of the article, subheading "The Fine Shepherd".

(2) the door - Jesus is also the door. So to speak, Jesus is referring himself (in) another role: He is the door - one proof of being real shepherd is by entering this door in connection with other shepherds other than Jesus - the “fine shepherd”. [this will be tackled later on]

Yes, he controls who enters and who is allowed to pasture sheep.

(3) doorkeeper - "The doorkeeper opens to this one [Christ, the shepherd]" (John 10:3) The New World Translation Revised 2013 references this doorkeeper to John the Baptist, with these bible texts in the marginal reference: Luke 1:17 and John 8:28. In Verse 28 John said, "I am not the Christ. But I have been sent ahead of that one [Christ, the shepherd]". Jews are so familiar with this practice, having a doorkeeper with the sheepfold.

Now here it seems i have not explained my point well enough.

Yes, the Jews were very familiar with shepherds and doorkeepers and how they worked together. The doorkeeper was not the shepherd of the sheep. The shepherds put their sheep in the fold at night while they went and slept. The doorkeeper stayed up throughout the night and kept watch over the sheep. He slept during the day once the shepherds had removed their sheep from his fold.

You said: "The doorkeeper opens to this one [Christ, the shepherd]" (John 10:3) but at John 10:3 Christ is not referring to himself as a shepherd. See page 3 of the article, subheading "One".

(4) The Fine Shepherd is unlike a hired man - In verses 12 and 13 of John Chapter 10, Jesus simply compares the difference between a shepherd and a hired men. He is pointing out He is "fine" type of Shepherd, who knows the sheep, and was known by the sheep, and cares for the sheep - even surrendering his life for it. The main reason of raising the idea about hired men is to highlight what true fine shepherd Jesus is - if we look at it. Verses 11 Jesus said "I am the fine shepherd", then he talked about hired men who really doesn't care about the sheep. and then going back to the main idea, Verses 14 again Jesus said, "I am the fine shepherd." Thus enclosing the whole idea.

The “stranger,” “thief,” “the hired man”: Apostates and false shepherds

- source: w80 7/15 pp. 22-28 The “Fine Shepherd” and His “Other Sheep”

False shepherd are selfish, they only care about what they could earn or getting paid for, unlike the fine shepherd who would rather die for the sake of the sheep. Likewise, Jehovah said to Prophet Hosea a warning to religious leaders who will be called to account (Hosea 4:9)

Christ himself defines what a "fine shepherd" is in verse 11: "the fine shepherd surrenders his life in behalf of the sheep."

So by his own definition, the act of surrendering his life for the sheep is what makes a shepherd fine. He does not say that a fine shepherd is fine because he is known by the sheep or is nice and kind to them. The hired man is also "known" by the sheep, otherwise he could not call them out of the fold and lead them to pasture. (John 10:2-5)

Verse 12 is not saying that the hired men are not kind and caring like the fine shepherd is, it is saying that the hired men flee from danger to save their own lives while the fine shepherd dies for the sheep. The hired men value their own lives more than the lives of the sheep in their care. (verse 13)

The strangers and thieves do not shepherd the sheep and so do not relate to verses 12 and 13.

(5) How about the other shepherds when Jesus used the words "whoever enters through me" ? (John 10:9)

If the thief/stranger/intruders are all false religious leaders, then who is this legit shepherds? They enter the door, and they get saved (verse 9). In order for the reader to understand, the New World Translation Committee, connect this one with the scene where Jesus gave a task to Apostle Peter to take care of the sheep (John 21:17).

[as we could see in marginal reference in NWT Revised 2013]

Foremost, their task was from Jesus Christ, since they are proof to be legit shepherds who enter through the door. If this shepherds/elders do their tasks that was assigned to them, they likewise will be saved.

Concerning the big responsibility of a shepherd in the congregation, Paul instructed Timothy, "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you." - 1 Timothy 4:16

Yes, there are also legitimate shepherds who enter though the door.

(6) Who is the "other sheep"?

Based on our history, millions of JW today historically came from different sorts of backgrounds and religions. I agree with that.

I understand that the article states the hypothesis that other sheep could be those people that is in progress in taking knowledge about bible truth from any JW that acts (as) a shepherd because each of us teaching the same things from the bible with the unity of message.

● The article shows how Jehovah’s people, anointed or not, from FDS to kids, share the same bible language of truth. I agree with this unity in God’s organization.

Even Jehovah said, "For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language, So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah,

To serve him shoulder to shoulder."

(Zephaniah 3:9)

● The article points out that we could all be shepherds in a perspective that we all lead people towards the truth. We really lead people towards the truth.

(Proverbs 10:21) . . .The very lips of the righteous one keep pasturing many. . .

The idea that we lead people like a shepherd is true.

But the idea that John Chapter 10 is about that is somehow need to be tested.

It looks like that, yes, it really looks like that. That’s a great part of the truth - our lips pasture many. But John Chapter 10 is not just about unity of message from the lips of all JW that pastures many.

Identity of Other Sheep will be known if we study how John Chapter 10 Harmonize with other Prophecies

I think that only verse 16 refers to us shepherding. The rest of John chapter 10 is about other things.

Let’s look out some points to review:

● Sheepfold -

In a community sheepfold, more than one flock might spend the night, and the doorkeeper would keep watch to protect the sheep. In the morning, the doorkeeper would open the door for the shepherds. Each shepherd would collect his flock by calling out to the sheep, and his sheep would recognize the voice of their shepherd and respond. (Joh 10:3-5) Jesus referred to this practice to illustrate the way he cared for his disciples.—Joh 10:7-14

( In NWT Revision 2013 marginal reference )

This is already an old practice for the Jews and practical for community to create big sheepfold were enough space for more than one flock.

● How many flocks inside the given sheepfold? We know that it was still called a sheepfold even without the sheep. (even based on your description of sheepfold). So it is not necessarily speaking that if there is a sheepfold, there is also a flock of sheep. Likewise, having a sheepfold doesn't necessarily mean there's a lot of flocks inside it already. In John Chapter 10, it was not directly stated if how many flocks inside the sheepfold.

○ Current Understanding: We only answer this question when consider out of the context bible verse such as Luke 12:32. Although we know that anointed Christians are called "little flock." We are sure of that. Could it really be possible that Jesus means anointed Christians already in the fold and then followed by the coming of other sheep. Thus he will "bring in" this other sheep. If this is true then, that would mean the anointed ones and other Christians would become one flock in some point in time? If they become one flock, so in some point in time they are separated?

Yes, with the first Christians being the only ones around, those that then became Christian could not have come from some other Christian denomination since there were none yet. So new Christians must have come from non-Christian religions. When they became Christians they joined with and became one flock with the anointed. But current thinking does not relate that to John 10:16.

Current thinking is that the "great crowd" (non-anointed Christians) are the "other sheep", and that the "great crowd" join together with the "little flock" of anointed and become "one flock."

But the "great crowd" are already Christians. They do not need to be brought in to listen to his voice. They are already in and listening to his voice and are already one flock with the anointed.

For "other sheep" to be referring to the "the great crowd" it would be as if your Kingdom Hall was the only one in existence and Christ came to your Kingdom Hall and said to you:

'I have other sheep, which are not of this Kingdom Hall and I must bring them in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one congregation'

And you asked Christ: Who are those other sheep?

And Christ said: The brothers and sisters standing around you here in this Kingdom Hall.

Do you see? You do not need to bring in and teach those who are already in and are already taught.

The "great crowd" are already "of this fold", and have already 'listened to his voice', and are already of this flock. So saying that those who are not of this fold and who have not yet listened to his voice are the "great crowd" does not work.

The "other sheep" are those who are not yet in this fold and have not yet listened to his voice.

● Will that mean that anointed Christians and earthly Christians are separated in some point in history? To answer this question, let's see if Jesus really wanted to say a physical unification of separated groups, or just figurative unification, or both. We could know that by identifying how the bible represents the two groups in other biblical prophecies.

● What type of Separation? - Is there other biblical reference that points out that two groups of Christians based on hope are separated then unified?

● “Take Firm Hold of the Robe of a Jew. Based on Zechariah 8:23 we will read, "This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people."

■ We want to go with you - “a Jew” (refers to anointed Christians as a group, serving like a one unit) will be followed by “ten men out of all the languages” (refers to people of all the nations). These men says to “a Jew” that they wanted to with them. (more reference not included) Does this mean a physical unification? The people of all nations will join the anointed Christians!

■ "We have heard that God is with you" - So Christians with earthly hope will see the evidence that God is supporting anointed ones as a "group" and then will join them. Best example, is what happened to ancient Israel and Rahab of Jericho, who already was convinced from reports received that the God of Israel was “God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.” (Joshua 2:11) To make a parallelism, Israel of God today is the anointed group of Christians, and will be followed by rahab-like people not professing to be part of Spiritual Israel, will follow and ‘go with them’.

■ To explain further: Jehovah’s people in our day never discriminate one another in the context of hope. Never that happened that there is a sort of creation of Organization of Anointed and Organization of Paradise Settlers, then unified as one. That never happened in early history nor in the modern times! But the history proves the two groups are separated in time, and then gradually unified along with time. History shows the (1) anointed group nourishes first in Pentecost 33 C.E. until the (2) nourishment of the other sheep, in the last days. (some reference says mid 1930’s) when the number of those who profess to be anointed slightly decreases or almost not increasing , yet millions of people out of all nations joins the truth while not professing to be of anointed class. Today they are living Christians with different hopes but inside one organization.

■ To summarize: (1) The term "We want to go with you" - needs a separate condition first. (2) Just like proselytes, and also the situation of Rahab - people that are not part of Israel of God today joins the organization after hearing the good news.

If Zechariah’s Prophecy is the basis, then who are the other sheep?

If we will put the term "other sheep" in biblical dictionary, does the words "they are not anointed" is enough to describe them? No. How about "they are JW that are not anointed"? Almost there, but still not enough. How about, "in the last days, these are the ones who heard the good news of Kingdom and then put faith, then joined the unified God's organization"? Yes, this is how Zechariah’s Prophecy helps us understand the other sheep.

Yes!! Exactly!! The ones who are the "other sheep" are those that will "hear the good news of Kingdom and then put faith, then joined the unified God's organization."

One difference is that you said "heard" while i said "will hear". John 10:16 says that they "will listen" and "will become". It is in their future.

You said "heard" which means it would have been in their past. Those who have already "heard" are not the ones who "will hear."

(From the article)

So the "other sheep" not of the "Christian" fold are therefore sheep of non-Christian folds. Though most Jehovah's Witnesses came from the churches of Christendom and therefore were never in the category of "other sheep", many can say that they used to be a part of some non-Christian religion in the world.

But how is this "one flock" also "one shepherd"? Since leading a sheep to pasture means leading them to the Bible, then all who teach the words of Jehovah and Christ Jesus are shepherds. That would include everyone from the FDS down to the publisher who studies with an interested one.

Other Sheep - article

Other Sheep - Help of Zechariah’s Prophecy and other sources

Sheep: Individuals of non-Christian Folds who in turn become Jehovah’s Witnesses

Sheep: Individuals of non-Christian Folds (probably non-JW if non-Christian religions will still be called hired men, since they also use their religion to gain selfish benefits) who in turn become Jehovah’s Witnesses but has an earthly hope

Some with the heavenly hope came from non-Christian religions, at least early on. (Acts 10:45)

Fine Shepherd - Christ

Other Shepherds - all ministers of God’s Kingdom

"hired men" too

● 1st “They” and 2nd “They” in John 10:16 Refers to combination of other sheep and the sheep in the fold, not to the other sheep alone. How? This will result to misinterpretation of the next meaning words “one flock” and “one shepherd”

“They”

● IF the word “They” refers to “other sheep” only thus will result in this conclusion: That would mean the other sheep will have its own flock inside the fold, and it will have its own shepherd. It will differ itself from the Fine Shepherd and its original sheep already in the fold. There will be two groups of sheep inside the fold, (1) the original (2) the other sheep. Then two major shepherds. (1) the Fine Shepherd and (2) the “one shepherd” of “one flock” of other sheep. Which is not appropriate nor harmonizing in other bible truths.

● IF the word “They” refers to “other sheep” as individuals just as the article concludes in the hypothesis, having one shepherd (individual minister) and then a sheep (interested individual). Then it will result in two errors: (1) It will show that the other sheep are not yet baptized Christians since they are still in the condition of a student under the lead of one minister, thus you cannot call any baptized JW as other sheep at all. (2) In the contexts, Jesus would never think of a shepherd who has so few or one sheep, Jesus uses “one flock” under a shepherd. That is not applicable if the idea is each of us would become a shepherd.

● IF the word “They” refers to other sheep combined with the original sheep inside the fold. This will result to this: (1) Jesus is teaching about the unity that both “will” do same thing. They both, “will listen”, and “will become one flock”, under “one shepherd” (2) Where does the original Fine Shepherd go after the original sheep and other sheep combines? Yes, the Fine Shepherd is the “one shepherd” himself.

○ This conclusion harmonizes with Luke 12:32. The anointed is already a flock. Followed by the other sheep, they will join them and then they “will become one flock” still.

○ This conclusion harmonizes with Zechariah Prophecy: If we reconsider, men of nations will follow a Jew. Figuratively, then Jesus as the Fine Shepherd uses “a Jew” (the anointed) to lead his people. Then the men of nations will say “we want to go with you”

This is not totally wrong, it’s just an explanation of other sheep in other perspective.

This is somehow the same style of giving conclusions regarding 1914. We uses different bible texts from different bible parts, combining them to create conclusions, provided considering the contexts also. Finally, we check if this is in harmony with all other bible teachings.

The different type of hope was not directly mentioned in John 10:16.

Common: unification of two different groups

I agree that it was not directly mentioned the concept of anointed and great crowd in the context of John 10:16. But I will take it like a “piece” of the whole picture.

Although I don’t want to become dogmatic about this. The facts are like missing pieces from different scriptures will and then will complete the picture together to make one clear picture. Luke 12:32, Zechariah 8:23, and John 10:16 are different pieces of puzzles that could have different shapes but when put together could create a clear concept; and for a certain, their common message is the unification of two different parties or group. (to compare: the Daniel’s Prophecy and Revelation Prophecy regarding World Empires are not contradicting but complementary)

For more info, I also consider this article to be an important reference:

In our new publication Pure Worship - Restored at Last!

Becoming united is the focus

The prophecy does not describe one stick that is first torn in two and then later brought together as one. Rather, it describes two sticks that become united as one. Hence, the prophecy did not focus on how the nation of Israel became divided into two kingdoms. Rather, it focused on how the two kingdoms would become one.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102017941

So far this is the most latest updated publication that also contains reasonable explanation about other sheep.

The above was one large grouping of an idea with references, so my response is here at the end.
You began with the idea that the two uses of the word "they" refers to two groups. A look at the original Greek will help with that.

Here is the original Greek text, followed by the English transliteration, followed by the definition.

(John 10:16b) "those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

Greek            English      Definition

κἀκεῖνα      kakeinos       and that one

δεῖ            dei            it is necessary

με            egó            I

ἀγαγεῖν,      agó            to lead, bring, carry

καὶ            kai            and, even, also

τῆς            ho            the

φωνῆς            phóné            a voice, sound

μου            egó            (of) I

ἀκούσουσιν,      akouó            to hear, listen

καὶ            kai            and, even, also

γενήσονται      ginomai      to come into being, to happen, to become

μία            heis            one

ποίμνη,      poimné      a flock

εἷς            heis            one

ποιμήν      poimén      a shepherd

Now let's put it all together with the selected definitions:

and that one it is necessary I bring and the voice (of) I listen and become one
flock one shepherd

The two instances of "they" in the NWT are not found in the original Greek, but the message of the verse seems clear:

The "other sheep" become "one flock" with the sheep of the fold that they are brought into.

In the end nothing has really changed. The anointed are still the anointed. We are still the great crowd. We and the remnant are still together as one large flock in this fold known as Christianity. And we still listen to Christ's voice. The only difference is who the term "other sheep" applies to.

It seems clear to me that Christ was referring to those in other religions of the world (or those that had no religion) who would hear his message and became Christians.

:^)
Dave

=======================================================================================

(from J) Text by J is in black responding to my comments in blue

No problem (J). I think that is why Jesus just called them "other sheep" and not "my other sheep". Because they had the right mental attitude, but were not his followers yet.

Response: Jesus refer to them as “I have other sheep”. What is the difference between “I have” and “my”? (I have an apple and I will give it to you. I will give my apple to you.) It both shows possession. My focuses on owner of the object, and I have to object as possession. But still, we need to look closely to whole picture to provide clear conclusion.

----

In his illustration (John 10:1-16), Christ does not play the role of shepherd. He is the door and decides who can lead the sheep out to pasture.

Jesus calls himself a "fine shepherd", not in reference to him shepherding sheep, but in reference to the sacrifice of his life for the sheep. See page 3 of the article, subheading "The Fine Shepherd".

Response: I could call your viewpoint as contextual, but if we will extent to biblical perspective, I will show you I have come to that conclusion.

Difference between contextual and biblical perspective is very important in the understanding of vital truths, since we mostly use biblical harmony when we study specific topics like 1914, Isaiah 9:6 “Mighty God”, and even the “Paradise” of Luke 23:43 and so on.

- Ezekiel 37:19 harmonizes with John 10:16. If the focus is the word “they.” How come? Please consider the same bone structure of the texts:

Ezekiel’s Prophecy (Ezek. 37:19, 24)

Jesus’ Prophecy (John 10:16)

(First)The second group was introduced

“I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel who are with him…”

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold…”

(Second) Then, the second group will be joined to the first group

“and I will join them to the stick of Judah…”

“those too I must bring in…”

(Third) Next, it shows the two groups combined, and as a result – (1) together will be one and will do one thing. (2) together will have one leader.

“and I will make them one stick, and they will become one in my hand…My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd.”

“and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

Vital Truth: We all know that this prophetic David is none other than Jesus-Christ our Leader.

*Just to add: The main reason that both in Ezekiel and Jesus Prophecy the word “will” is used is because they are prophecies. They are not simply typical representation but a will-become prophecy. If that will be considered, then when Jesus said, “they will listen to my voice.” He is not speaking about the response of subject to the voice, but their character. Instead of expressing it as “the subject will then listen to me and then will follow me.” But more appropriate as: “the subject will be good listeners and followers.” It’s foretelling the character of future servants.

Now, who is this “one shepherd” if we will focus on biblical harmony of prophecy? The “one shepherd” also called as “King David.” We all know that this prophetic David is none other than Jesus-Christ our Leader.

Jehovah even says, “I will make them one nation in the land… and one king will rule over all of them, and they will no longer be two nations; nor will they be divided into two kingdoms.” (Ezekiel 37:22)

So based on biblical harmony of the prophecies, then Jesus is acting as the “one shepherd” of the “one flock” – that is to the two groups - “all of them.”

-----

You said: "The doorkeeper opens to this one [Christ, the shepherd]" (John 10:3) but at John 10:3 Jesus is not referring to himself as a shepherd. See page 3 of the article, subheading "One".

Please see to it that John 10:16 is referring to “one shepherd” which is when studied carefully is the Christ. However, I will not focus on John 10:3, since this is just a small detail. And as we knew, when Jesus is teaching, there is no assurance that every detail is a typical representation of exact something else. So, it could be John the Baptist in a sense, somehow, but not limited to that point of view. I even personally acknowledge the possibility that the “doorkeeper” resembles Jehovah’s support for the legit shepherds, or his intervention if who he allows to pasture the flock. Like Ezekiel 34:23, Jehovah says. “I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David. And he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd.” But I won’t be dogmatic on that view :-)

------

Christ himself defines what a "fine shepherd" is in verse 11: "the fine shepherd surrenders his life in behalf of the sheep."

So by his own definition, the act of surrendering his life for the sheep is what makes a shepherd fine. He does not say that a fine shepherd is fine because he is known by the sheep or is nice and kind to them. The hired man is also "known" by the sheep, otherwise he could not call them out of the fold and lead them to pasture. (John 10:2-5)

Verse 12 is not saying that the hired men are not kind and caring like the fine shepherd is, it is saying that the hired men flee from danger to save their own lives while the fine shepherd dies for the sheep. The hired men value their own lives more than the lives of the sheep in their care. (verse 13)

The strangers and thieves do not shepherd the sheep and so do not relate to verses 12 and 13.

That’s what we call typical representation of the illustration. I will agree on you if we use that perspective. But if the perspective of “prophecy”, then hired men would be those supposed to be spiritual shepherds who contradicts Jesus command to ‘feed the lambs’ but they instead focus on their own benefits or payments. Their attitude is comparable that of the rebellious Jewish spiritual shepherds who only focuses on what they get from the sheep. (John 21:15; compare Ezekiel 34:1-8)

--------

I think that only verse 16 refers to us shepherding. The rest of John chapter 10 is about other things.

Some details in John Chapter 10 can be extended to other branches of topics like the doorkeeper, the fold, the plunderers and the hired men. But actually the book Jesus – The Way, the Truth, the Life has a good explanation and interpretation of what we are talking about. (see jy chap.80, p 186-187) Yet, John 10:16 is composed of prophecy by Christ regarding the unification of the first group of sheep and the other sheep. Thus, all of them would characterize the future of God’s organization. Shepherding is another perspective. But the main objective of the Jesus is actually to teach the Jews regarding their need of a fine shepherd, the relationship of the shepherd to the sheep, and how the new faith will have one shepherd. “ So to summary based on the book of Jesus- The Way, it will be divided primarily in three points:

(1)      Jesus spoke this comparison to them. (John 10:1-6) Jesus prime focus is the Jewish status when He came as the legit shepherd or Messiah yet other tried to claim to be the Messiah. But the doorkeeper, who is John the Baptist, opened up only to Jesus. That’s why the faithful Jews listened to Jesus and accepted his teachings. Christ ‘leads out’ the sheep from the sheepfold of Law Covenant and goes ahead of them to the new sheepfold under Christian Congregation.

(2)      Jesus is the door…& (compared to thieves, plunderers, and hired men) Jesus is the fine shepherd. (John 10:7-15) Jesus primarily focuses on his own identity as the fine shepherd and how he cares for the sheep compare to those who are not legit.

(3)      Unification of first group of sheep and other sheep. (John 10:16) Which is primarily, a prophecy.

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Yes, with the first Christians being the only ones around, those that then became Christian could not have come from some other Christian denomination since there were none yet. So new Christians must have come from non-Christian religions. When they became Christians they joined with and became one flock with the anointed. But current thinking does not relate that to John 10:16.

Current thinking is that the "great crowd" (non-anointed Christians) are the "other sheep", and that the "great crowd" join together with the "little flock" of anointed and become "one flock."

I must disagree a little bit about the “are”, our publications shows that other sheep and great crowd are related to each other but they aren’t actually one in description. Because the other term is not limited to that of another. Even in Watchtower 1995, it reads, “other sheep” In summary, we might remember “other sheep” as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a “great crowd” with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. “

To illustrate: Not all other sheep will survive great tribulation, some could die during the progress. While, whoever will survive great tribulation will be called as part of the great crowd. (Revelations 7:14)

But the "great crowd" are already Christians. They do not need to be brought in to listen to his voice. They are already in and listening to his voice and are already one flock with the anointed.

For "other sheep" to be referring to Jehovah's Witnesses who are not anointed it would be as if your Kingdom Hall was the only one in existence and Christ came to your Kingdom Hall and said to you:

'I have other sheep, which are not of this Kingdom Hall and I must bring them in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one congregation'

This idea in fact is not applicable. Jesus said that ‘he must bring them in’ as well as Jehovah said of the stick of Joseph and Judah, ‘I will join [the stick of Joseph] … and I will join them to the stick of Judah’, both of these are the doings of Lord Jesus and Sovereign Lord Jehovah, not directly us. They refer to unity, and not to exact literal movement of individual humans. A figurative ‘bringing in’ the other sheep as group as the increase of number of other sheep compares to those of anointed ones.

It is a prophecy about two groups. Jesus and Jehovah does not refer to typical representation of individuals but only of “figurative” groups, just like tagging some people as part of the anointed and other sheep, but still inside one congregation.

And you asked Christ: Who are those other sheep?

And Christ said: The brothers and sisters standing around you here in this Kingdom Hall.

Do you see? You do not need to bring in and teach those who are already in and are already taught.

As already discussed, this is not exact representation of individuals. This is a prophecy regarding the unity within the Christian Congregation even with the two groups of different hopes. After the stick of Joseph and stick of Judah became one, they will serve as one nation based on Ezekiel. But that doesn’t mean they lost their identity as from Joseph and from Judah right? So this even after the two groups of sheep combined, their hopes will still identify them as from the other sheep and from the first group of sheep. Yet, they will serve as one flock. If I will illustrate it in the way you illustrate it, then if one of the sheep will be asked if where is he from, it would answer: I belong to the other sheep. Some will answer that they belong to the first group. Though they serve as one flock now.

The "great crowd" are already "of this fold", and have already 'listened to his voice', and are already of this flock. So saying that those who are not of this fold and who have not yet listened to his voice are the "great crowd" does not work.

The "other sheep" are those who are not yet in this fold and have not yet listened to his voice.

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Yes!! Exactly!! The ones who are the "other sheep" are those that will "hear the good news of Kingdom and then put faith, then joined the unified God's organization."

It’s almost there, but why did I use the word “heard”? Jesus said “I have other sheep” and he could only call it sheep when he knew they are actually listening already. (John 10:27) That’s why Jesus able to join them with the first group of sheep, since they are all one type – sheep. Both the first group and the other sheep already follows him as shepherd. The difference is, Jesus prophetically saying that when the other sheep already combined with the first group, they as one, “will listen” and follow him as “one flock” not in different direction but only under “one shepherd.”

Why then Jesus said “they will listen”? Jesus refers not to other sheep only, but to the combination of other sheep and the first group. How did you come to that conclusion? Answer: Jesus said first that he will bring the other sheep in, then after that he used the word they. So after they are already joined with the first group, that’s the time Jesus said, “they will listen to my voice” and “they will become one flock.”

One difference is that you said "heard" while i said "will hear". John 10:16 says that they "will listen" and "will become". It is in their future.

You said "heard" which means it would have been in their past. Those who have already "heard" are not the ones who "will hear."

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You began with the idea that the two uses of the word "they" refers to two groups. A look at the original Greek will help with that.

Here is the original Greek text, followed by the English transliteration, followed by the definition.

(John 10:16b) "those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

Greek            English      Definition

κἀκεῖνα      kakeinos       and that one

δεῖ            dei            it is necessary

με            egó            I

ἀγαγεῖν,      agó            to lead, bring, carry

καὶ            kai            and, even, also

τῆς            ho            the

φωνῆς            phóné            a voice, sound

μου            egó            (of) I

ἀκούσουσιν,      akouó            to hear, listen

καὶ            kai            and, even, also

γενήσονται      ginomai      to come into being, to happen, to become

μία            heis            one

ποίμνη,      poimné      a flock

εἷς            heis            one

ποιμήν      poimén      a shepherd

Now let's put it all together with the selected definitions:

and that one it is necessary I bring and the voice (of) I listen and become one
flock one shepherd

The two instances of "they" in the NWT are not found in the original Greek, but the message of the verse seems clear:

The "other sheep" become "one flock" with the sheep of the fold that they are brought into.

In the end nothing has really changed. The anointed are still the anointed. We are still the great crowd. We and the remnant are still together as one large flock in this fold known as Christianity. And we still listen to Christ's voice. The only difference is who the term "other sheep" applies to.

It seems clear to me that Christ was referring to those in other religions of the world (or those that had no religion) who would hear his message and became Christians.

I agree with that exact words from Greek, but our NWT Committee for translation discussed that they translated it for the sake of proper meaning not only the word by word process or style of translation. (Consider also Ezekiel’s Prophecy and the biblical truth harmony) However, since this topic will not change the truth as whole at all after all, I will respect both our viewpoints and I think we enjoyed this enough. We’ll wait for Jehovah’s spirit to clarify everything in time. Let’s just see the future and endured til’ the end with faithfulness. :-) Again, agape love

Bro. J

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(from Me)

Jesus refer to them as “I have other sheep”. What is the difference between “I have” and “my”? (I have an apple and I will give it to you. I will give my apple to you.) It both shows possession. My focuses on owner of the object, and I have to object as possession. But still, we need to look closely to whole picture to provide clear conclusion.

Very good point! I did not express that well at all. :^) My thought was that he had other sheep, but they were not yet in the one flock of John 10:16. Like at Revelation 18:4 where he has people who are still in Babylon the Great.

"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

Thank you (J)

I have enjoyed our discussion!

:^)
Dave

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(from D)

Hi Dave!

I must say I really enjoyed your articles as well as your candor (enforces the fact you are not apostate) by including comments on your site as well!

Please take this with a grain of salt as I have no biblical backup or publications that have posed this opinion.

Something that has always struck me about this scripture as someone "unlettered and ordinary" is the part of the sentence, "one flock, one shepherd."

It seems to me that you have a lot of language skills so could you please let me know your opinion as to the backup of your hypothesis saying that the one flock would also be one shepherd?

My point is that in English as far as I know the comma can do a lot more than is obvious at first glance.

As I've said I have no backup or even logical thought pattern but I distinctly have had this same thought several times over the years and have just focused on other things so I apologize to both you and myself for that.

Here's the brunt of my question, you suggest that the statement means the flock will also BE shepherds themselves. The comma COULD mean that, but in my mind it could mean they would collectively HAVE one shepherd.(or even shepherd group, i.e. Jesus + anointed)

What do you think?

Thanks, and keep on with your great help for all the brothers and sisters who are having trouble getting spiritual food due to infirmities!

(D)

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(from Me)

Hi D

Nice to hear from you again.

I don't receive many emails about my articles so thank you for your email.   :^)

I am no expert either, but here is how i see it.

Commas are used in many ways.

This site explains their use well.

https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp

John 10:16 has 4 commas.

The first one uses rule 15 from the website above, to separate contrasting parts of a sentence.

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

The next two commas use rule 3b, where two independent clauses are joined by a connector.

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

The final comma use seems to fall under rule 1, to separate words in a simple series

The words separated by a comma refer back to a single subject.

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

In this verse, which is one sentence, the subject is "other sheep", which "those" and "they" (twice) refer us back to.

And each part (clause) of the sentence has its own verb: bring, listen, become.

The "other sheep" he will bring in.

The "other sheep" will listen to his voice.

The "other sheep" will become one flock, one shepherd.

So my hypothesis that they will become "one flock" and "one shepherd" comes from the sentence structure itself, backed up by the commas within the sentence.

For your hypothesis to work "one shepherd" would have to be an independent clause of its own.

For "one shepherd" to be a clause sentence structure rules dictate that it must contain a verb.

And not only would a verb (such as "have") need to be in front of "one shepherd", but a connector (such as "and") would need to be in front of that as well.

"and they will become one flock, (and have) one shepherd."

But neither exist in the original Greek, so "one flock" and "one shepherd" are within a single clause, which contains one subject (they), one verb (become), and one comma to separate a simple series each of which refer back to the subject.

"and they will become one flock"

"and they will become... one shepherd."

What do you think?

:^)
Dave

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(from D)

This is great. Thank you. I'll review the website and go into it making the assumption that I'm right just since it's contradictory. Lol. As I said, I could see it either way but there probably is a specific intent. And the only way to know for sure is sentence structure in the original as you said.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply.

I'm surprised you don't get many replies to your articles. I love them whether I agree with them or not. As you mention in your about these pages document, we are not to be "sheep" in the sense of just accepting blindly. We are all to use our own God given intellect to draw closer. As long as we keep in mind that the governing body is indeed Jesus faithful slave with final say.

Thanks again. Talk soon!

D

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