Message of Doom - Comments

(R)

“Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”!

This was an interesting, informative, and identifying WT lesson, and we all probably need to review it!

Charles Cinutko discussed this in his talk about 40 years ago!.. Called it a "Message of Doom." He pretty much had the sequence right, according to our modern understanding, even way back then!

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015523?q=kings+of+the+earth+attack&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015523

9, 10. (a) What message will God’s people deliver at that time? (b) How will the enemies of God’s people react?

9 This will not be the time to preach the “good news of the Kingdom.” That time will have passed. The time for “the end” will have come! (Matt. 24:14) No doubt God’s people will proclaim a hard-hitting judgment message. This may well involve a declaration announcing that Satan’s wicked world is about to come to its complete end. The Bible likens this message to hailstones when it says: “Great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.”—Rev. 16:21.

R

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Thanks for sharing R

I guess the thinking has changed:

[w03 12/1 p. 29] The modern-day watchman class, anointed Christians, have been warning about the doom of Christendom, antitypical Jerusalem. When the “great tribulation” strikes and devastates “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion, the anointed Ezekiel class will need to say nothing more about the demise of Christendom, which constitutes a major part of that empire.—Matthew 24:21; Revelation 17:1, 2, 5. Yes, the day will come when the anointed remnant and their companions will become mute, not having anything further to convey to Christendom. That will be when “the ten horns” and “the wild beast” make Babylon the Great devastated and naked. (Revelation 17:16) Of course, this does not mean that Christians will be speechless in a literal sense. Even as they do now, they will praise Jehovah and make mention of him every day and “throughout all generations to come.”

So we are gonna go knocking on people's doors and tell them:

It is too late for you now.
You had your chance but you blew it.
Now you are gonna die.
Here, read this fine publication that condemns you to eternal death.

Really???
Is that whole theory based on Revelation 16:21?
If we preached that, the people would blaspheme us, not God. (or worse)
What would be the point of a "Message of Doom" (unless redemption is possible)?
Just to rub their nose in it (that they are about to die)?
I don't see it.

The (new) message can't be: "This system is coming to an end so you better change your ways" because that has been our message for over 100 years.

A 2013 article says that once the Great Tribulation hits it will be too late for them:

[w13 7/15 p. 6 par. 13] How does that understanding affect our view of our ministry? It helps us to see how important our preaching work is. Until the great tribulation begins, people still have time to change their thinking and start walking on the cramped road “leading off into life.” (Matt. 7:13, 14)

So what do you really think?

:^)
Dave

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(R)

Hi Dave,

The article is very clear, and totally unrelated to your '03 and '13 quote to which it in no way disagrees! You have the timing off completely, please reread the article! That's evident in the very questions you ask! There's been no change.

And I disagree with most everything you write, and will not defend the slave's position to you. But you certainly are entitled to believe what you want to believe!

I have been baptized since 1959, my father was of the anointed, and have watched people over 60 (I'm 71) years value their own opinion... It just doesn't work!

You are no scholar, but I have watched many of my scholar friends fall out of the truth when they started deciding they were more astute and erudite than the slave! My cousin ..... valued his own opinion and was a self-proclaimed authority. ....., along with many of my relatives, so I have no interest in other's opinions. All of us could write a book about how our understanding is at variance from what is published by the slave, that's a meaningless waste of time.

If I were you, I would stop thinking so much about my own opinion, which you're entitled to, and spend my knowledge and time knocking on people's doors before this awesome message of Salvation is closed! It's one thing to have an opinion, but it's a very dangerous path when you start posting to the world personal opinions that disagree with the slave's. As far as I'm concerned you're way out of line.

We have several faithful brothers who teach at universities. ..... we have a question desk in NY.... why not ask THEM what they think?

I do thank you for, and enjoy the valuable items that you post. You are probably the best on the earth at this time doing what you do, and for that I thank you so much! You have helped many of us disabled folks out tremendously!

Agape,
Your brother R

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Thank you!!!!
You're a breath of fresh air :^)
I don't want to just be told I'm right.
I want constructive criticism backed up by scripture.
Either i get people telling me I'm right, without adding any scriptural reasons for saying so, or i get people telling me I'm wrong without sighting any scriptures to prove it.
I want to have two-way dialogue with people who have deep bible knowledge who can adjust a thought of mine that isn't quite right, or show me where I am flat out wrong.

Regarding the 2015 Watchtower article, I need help seeing what you see. I see the paragraph saying "God’s people will proclaim a hard-hitting judgment message." I only know how to take that one way.

In the recent video "Avoid What Erodes Loyalty" it has the same message.
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/pub-jwbcov_201605_8_VIDEO
Just as in paragraph 9 of that Watchtower article, the story in the video also takes place during the great tribulation.
At 9:53 it says "When our message changed from good news to judgment".

I see both of these sources saying the same thing. That we will be proclaiming a message of judgment.

Please help me see my error.

in sincerity
Dave

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R. Since you haven't responded i won't bother you in email, but maybe you will read this.

It has been a while and i keep thinking about one thing you said; that you "will not defend the slave's position".

Considering 1 Peter 3:15, if our beliefs align with that of the slave's, should we not be able to defend our beliefs with scripture?

I am not asking you to defend your beliefs with me, just that you think about it.

your brother
Dave

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(P)

That was an interesting exchange re: Message of Doom.  

While not trying to "speculate" or agree/disagree, I just hope there is more to it than we know now. I have always wondered what good a proclamation of doom would be without a chance for change, vis-a-vis 

Jonah/Ninevah. I know Jehovah would not send us into harm's way without a particular purpose. I keep hoping for "new light" on this.

P

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Hi P

I agree. What's the point of a "message of doom" to the people if it doesn't come with the option for repentance.

Did my timing in my comments seem off to you? (R) said: "You have the timing off completely".

Paragraph 7 in his referenced Watchtower article says: "What will happen after the destruction of false religious organizations?" So the message of judgment in paragraph 9 comes after the destruction of Babylon the Great.

And my referenced articles [w03 12/1 p. 29] & [w13 7/15 p. 6 par. 13] say that after the destruction of false religion we will become "mute" and it will be too late for people "to change".

So i don't see how my timing is off. (If anyone reading this sees my error, please let me know)

Maybe the "hard-hitting judgment message" will just be another "Resolution" like the many we have done in the past:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200274862

You can click the following link to open the list of resolutions in WtLib on your computer:

:^)
Dave

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(O)

Hi bro, i was reading your comments. Recently I was studying Ezekiel’s prophecy.
Ezekiel become speechless because he didn’t say anything more to JERUSALEM, but from 609 to 607 he actually spoke many doom messages to other nations like Moab, Egypt, Tiro, etc.

In the future when the antitypical Jerusalem (Babylon the great) falls we won’t say anything more according to that matter. But to the other pagan nations we will give to them a doom message.

O

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Hi O

Thank you for joining in on the discussion!

The article i referenced also mentions a specific silence:

"the anointed Ezekiel class will need to say nothing more about the demise of Christendom, which constitutes a major part of that empire. ...the day will come when the anointed remnant and their companions will become mute, not having anything further to convey to Christendom."
[w03 12/1 p. 29]

You said that after Babylon the Great falls that a message of doom will then be directed at "the other pagan nations."

Since "Babylon the Great" represents all false religious organizations, and since after her fall no false religion will remain, are you suggesting that the message of doom that follows her demise will be directed at pagan governments?

Or do you mean that the message will be against the citizens of pagan nations since Revelation 16:21 says that the hailstones fell "on the people" instead of on the kings of the earth?

A talk at the 2018 Regional Convention says this:

After the destruction of Babylon the Great, we will no longer be preaching the "good news of the Kingdom". (Mt 24:14) The long-awaited "end" will have come! (Re 16:18-20; re 234 ¶38) We believe that instead of good news, Jehovah's people will proclaim a hard-hitting message of judgment. (Re 16:21) This message is compared to hailstones. The symbolic hailstone plague will be "unusually great". We will need courage to proclaim the hailstone message. Imagine the courage Jonah needed to proclaim Jehovah's judgment against the city of Nineveh! (Jon 3:4) However, unlike the Ninevites, who repented, people will 'blaspheme God' in response to the hailstone message. There will be no last-minute change of heart. To the end, most of humankind will continue to defy God. We do not yet know the details of the hailstone message. It may involve a declaration announcing that Satan's world is about to come to its complete end. We will have to wait and see what avenues of preaching we will use at that time. (w08 7/15 7 ¶16)

So the latest information on the topic is still non-specific. It also only gives Revelation 16:21 as the basis for the thinking that we "will proclaim a hard-hitting message of judgment".

The article from 2015 is very similar:

This will not be the time to preach the “good news of the Kingdom.” That time will have passed. The time for “the end” will have come! (Matt. 24:14) No doubt God’s people will proclaim a hard-hitting judgment message. This may well involve a declaration announcing that Satan’s wicked world is about to come to its complete end. The Bible likens this message to hailstones when it says: “Great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.”—Rev. 16:21. [w15 7/15 p.16 ¶9]

The February 15th 2009 Watchtower (p.4) says that the proclamation of judgment would likely be "pictured by congealed water." (a.k.a. frozen water; ice) At Exodus 15:8 Moses also described the supernatural event of the splitting of the Red Sea as "congealed water".

Revelation 16:17-21 is describing what happens when the 7th angel pours out his bowl:

¹⁷ The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” ¹⁸ And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive and so great was the earthquake. ¹⁹ The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. ²⁰ Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. ²¹ Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.

Verse 17 references a voice from the throne (from above). Then verse 18 groups voices with lightning and thunder, two things that also come from above. Verse 21 ends the description with hailstones that "fell from heaven" causing the people to blaspheme God, the source of the plague.

If the hailstones represent a message of doom from a group of humans (JW's) that the people of earth do not even believe are the true religion, why would they blaspheme God whom they do not even believe that we represent or speak for?

"Picture the scene:" The governments of the world have just destroyed Babylon the Great, ending that plague upon humanity, and bringing "peace and security" to the planet. The people are rejoicing and are looking forward to a better life without her control. Then we knock on their door with a message of doom.

I would think that their response would be: "If there is a God, why did he allow His religions to be destroyed?"

I don't think that a message of doom (that they don't believe) would cause them to blaspheme God, whom they probably don't even believe in. I think they would laugh us off their doorstep.

The world in general does not believe anything we say. How would us telling them that Armageddon is about to strike be any different? Unless there were supernatural events occurring that proved it to be so. But then those events would be the proclamation of Armageddon, and not us.

If the "great hailstones" are a supernatural occurrence like the celestial phenomenon mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 then i could definitely see the people blaspheming God because of it. Just as they will beat themselves in grief when they see the sign of the Son of man in the heavens. (Mt 24:30)

I have found no other scriptures used by the FDS (only Re 16:21) to back-up the idea that we would be declaring a message of doom.

What do you think?

:^)
Dave

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(03-13-2020)

Hi Dave hope you're doing well.  

I've thought about your message of doom article. I  can't seem to come up with an answer to "what good a proclamation of doom would be without a chance for change."

A current Watchtower stated: 

We may proclaim the impending doom of Satan’s world. In time, we will find out exactly what our message will be and how we will deliver it. Will we use the same methods we have used for over a hundred years to accomplish our ministry? Or will we use some other methods? We will have to wait and see. In any case, it seems that we will have the privilege of boldly proclaiming Jehovah’s judgment message!—Ezek. 2:3-5.(emphasis mine) [Watchtower 2019 Oct p. 14]

That's good enough for me to be honest.
Thanks for your thought provoking reading material though.  

Agape
E

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Hi E

Though the preaching work is the duty of the anointed, we get to assist them.

I had thought that perhaps the message of doom would be something that only the anointed would be tasked with doing. But who in the world listens to anything we, or our governing body say? No one does.

We are a tiny fragment of the world and are ignored by them. We have been proclaiming messages of doom for over 100 years. It's no wonder no one pays any attention to us.

Then, as i was making my recent article "The Prophecy of Joel", the part about Joel 2:28, 29 (page 16) got me thinking that perhaps those verses are talking about the message of doom.

If so then that means they would be the ones to proclaim this new prophecy, having gotten it from dreams and visions.

If suddenly the Jews started proclaiming a message of doom, the world would sit up and wonder what was going on.

The objective of the holy spirit in 33 C.E. was to spread the message. Perhaps that objective has not changed since then, and every anointed one had that sole objective as well.

But Joel 2:28, 29 says that "in those days" it will be different.

Jehovah's Witnesses have had holy spirit anointed ones all along, but suddenly having holy spirit poured out on Jews, and them start proclaiming a message of doom, that would definitely be something different.

:^)
Dave

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Hi Dave

It appears that you are clinging heavily to what seems to be what we call a non salvation issue.

So let's look at what you have written:

Though the preaching work is the duty of the anointed, we get to assist them

I have no reason not to agree.

I had thought that perhaps the message of doom would be something that only the anointed would be tasked with doing.

To be completely honest , I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. 

But who in the world listens to anything we, or our governing body say? No one does.

WHO CARES….!! Have you watched the March 2020 Broadcasting Dave? Our commission is not to be troubled by whether people listen to us or not. If they don’t, that’s up to them. Br Sanderson sums up our goal perfectly when he said “our time would be better spent searching for...people who are rightly disposed for everlasting life.” 

I think that should be our principal objective.

We are a tiny fragment of the world and are ignored by them. We have been proclaiming messages of doom for over 100 years. It's no wonder no one pays any attention to us.

Jesus said “… whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.” Indeed “tiny fragment of the world” will find that road leading off into life.

Peter said:  “For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”

Let them ignore us. Allow them to “take no note” , ….For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men. (2 Peter 3)

Then, as i was making my recent article about the book of The Prophecy of Joel, the part about Joel 2:28, 29 (page 16) got me thinking that perhaps those verses are talking about the message of doom.

PLAGUE AND FAMINE

[w81 6/1 pp. 28-29]

Joel’s prophecy might well be viewed as consisting of three parts. Part one (1:1 to 2:11) gives a twofold description of a locust plague. The first description likens it to a plague of four kinds of locusts that have the teeth and jawbones of lions. Concerning Joel’s report of it, we are told: “The terrific destruction wrought by a plague of locusts on the agricultural, economic and religious life of a people is described with almost scientific accuracy, according to many who have witnessed such a scourge.”

As Joel tells us, everything is eaten up, the ground is despoiled, the farmers are in distress and the vinedressers are howling. Even the domestic animals sigh and the cattle are in confusion. No wonder the priests and ministers at Jehovah’s house are told to howl, to spend the night in sackcloth, to sanctify a time of fasting and to “cry to Jehovah for aid”!—Joel 1:14.

The second description of the locust plague begins with the command to sound an alert: “Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain.” Then follows the description: “Like powerful men they run. Like men of war they go up a wall. . . . One another they do not shove. As an able-bodied man in his course, they keep going; and should some fall even among the missiles, the others do not break off course. Into the city they rush. On the wall they run. On the houses they go up. Through the windows they go in like the thief.”—Joel 2:1, 7-9.

In view of the highly pictorial language used, it appears that we are to view Joel’s words as a prophecy rather than as a report of what had actually happened in the past. To what does it apply? The facts suggest that it has application to the modern vigorous house-to-house witnessing done by Jehovah’s Witnesses beginning in the early 1920’s. They have indeed proved to be a plague to modern Christendom and have moved forward like a well-disciplined army.

This makes much more sense than that book your quoting. (I know that this is not our current understanding of Joel 2:7-9 but this one is even more practical then that book's.)

The book says for example:

“Remember their setting and their context: they are still part of the prophetic description of the day of the LORD.”

Now that’s about right . Then it goes on to say: With their thick armor plating, no ordinary bullet can wound them - (v. 8).

The moment a city is taken, with the tanks and armored vehicles as a spearhead, these spread out inside the city to take control as speedily and effectively as possible. They push over walls and even crush houses that stand in their way - even pushing in through windows by force. With our modern houses especially, with their big windows, such a tank could drive in through the window, move through the house and out at the other side, with flattened walls in its wake!

Verse 10: When such a squadron of tanks are on the move, the earth literally “quakes” under the weight of thousands of tons of moving steel. Modern armies have tens of thousands of these vehicles. With each of their guns spouting fire, and explosive shells, even atomic warheads, the “heavens shall tremble” and the smoke of battle shall obscure the light of sun, moon and stars.

Just read through the Watchtower article above and compare it with what this book says. It shouldn’t be difficult to see who’s clarification is more feasible. Then you open up the April 2020 Watchtower and get an even more refined elucidation. 

All praise to JAH our God for refining us always.

If suddenly the Jews started proclaiming a message of doom, the world would sit up and wonder what was going on.

They would absolutely “sit up” and wonder what on earth is going on with the Jews attempting to do what only JWs can do. That is, to proclaim accurate bible truths.

The objective of the holy spirit in 33 C.E. was to spread the message. Perhaps that objective has not changed since then, and every anointed one had that sole objective as well.

Yes , that was the objective . And no it has not changed. I don’t need to go into why the governing body of today do not have any charismatic gifts as those in the first century. You know that already.

But Joel 2:28, 29 says that "in those days" it will be different.

Yes the message will definitely be different . But the apostle Peter tells us exactly what’s meant by "in those days" . As the Watchtower of April 2020 says “Peter used slightly different wording when quoting Joel’s prophecy.”

The rest you can read for yourself. 

Regards
E

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Hi E

Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to respond!!

As i have said in my writings, the truth is what is important to me, so PLEASE realize that i am replying to you, NOT to try and change what you believe, but to try and explain what conclusions i have reached and why.

My hope is that you can point out any errors i have in my scriptural understanding.

It appears that you are clinging heavily to what seems to be what we call a non salvation issue.

I wholeheartedly agree that these issues are not salvation related. As Jesus said:

(Mt 22:37-40) “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ ³⁸ This is the greatest and first commandment. ³⁹ The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ ⁴⁰ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

Nothing i discuss in any of my articles matters at all to our salvation. Scriptural accuracy is irrelevant, if you are following what Jesus said in those verses.

The same goes with finding minor flaws in the teachings of the FDS. They are our brothers and they are imperfect men just as we are. And as Paul himself tells us at 1 Corinthians 13:9, 12, this side of Armageddon no one will have perfect understanding of the scriptures. That applies to me, you, and our brothers in the governing body. Without flaws, the light couldn't get brighter, right? :^)

So i am looking into Bible matters and trying to gain deeper understanding NOT because i think my life depends on it. I do it because it really interests me. I don't have hobbies or watch sports. I have zero interest in watching grown men play. My joy and enthusiasm comes from improving my understanding of scripture. I am just as thrilled when i find out i was wrong about something, because that too is improving my understanding.

It seems to me that many of the brothers and sisters are not interested in learning more than they have to. They are very content to just "wait and see," and just remain at their current level of understanding. So they sit and wait for someone else to tell them what to think.

But that is not me. I am one of those that reads the Bible daily and am very interested in "increasing in the accurate knowledge of God." (Col 1:10)

When i said that no one listens or pays attention to us, my point was that at Revelation 16:21 it says that the people of the earth blaspheme God because of the hailstones. So everyone on earth would be hearing this message. But if the hailstones are a message of doom from us, and no one hears it because no one is paying any attention to us, then no one would be blaspheming God. :^)

If that weirdo down the street from you walked up and down your block with a sign that said the Canadians would invade tomorrow, would you "blaspheme" the Canadians? Of course not. You don't believe a thing that guy says. You would probably just laugh at him.

You mention some book. I did a search with a quote you have from that book in the Watchtower Library but i came up with nothing. I also did a Google search. Still nothing. I don't know what book you are referring to but i am not quoting any book, other than the Bible and JW publications. The ideas i express are my own. And i do not read other sources when i am looking into a topic, other than a website that shows the original language and its translation, and the same verses in other translations of the Bible, just for comparison.

Examples:

https://biblehub.com/text/john/7-8.htm

https://biblehub.com/john/7-8.htm

In view of the highly pictorial language used, it appears that we are to view Joel’s words as a prophecy rather than as a report of what had actually happened in the past.

All of Joel was a prophecy. None of it had happened yet when Joel wrote about it.

You said: "open up the April 2020 Watchtower and get an even more refined elucidation."

I loved your use of the word "elucidation" by the way. I had to look that one up. :^)

That Watchtower article is what prompted me to write my article on Joel. To me the article was the opposite of "refined". The scriptures provided did not back up the statements made. And actually, when examined closely, the scriptures contradicted the statements made.

My idea that the Jews might be the ones to proclaim the message of doom comes from Joel.

Who did Joel address his letter to?

The Jews. (Joel 1:2)

Could Joel also be addressed to us JW's? For instance, is Joel 2:28, 29 talking about JW's?

Well if you look at Joel 2:28, it starts with the words "After that".

After what?

After everything from Joel 1:1 to Joel 2:27.

Are those verses describing what has happened to JW's?

No. Not at all.

Who did all of those things happen to?

The Jews.

And who does Joel chapter 3 refer to?

The Jews.

So Joel addressed his letter to the Jews. (Joel 1:2)

And he described what did and will happen to the Jews. (whole book of Joel)

With that in mind, how do you cherry pick one verse (Joel 2:28) out of the middle of all of that and say that it applies to us and not the Jews?

Joel says "your sons and your daughters" are the ones who will prophecy and have dreams and visions "in those days" before Armageddon.

Since Joel is written for and about the Jews, it makes sense that Joel 2:28 must also be about the sons and daughters of the Jews.

And since verse 29 says "my slaves", and does not say 'your slaves', perhaps that is referring to the Faithful Slave. So they may also receive dreams and visions and prophecy with the Jews in the end just before Armageddon. Which is why i was thinking that the anointed would be the ones proclaiming the message of doom, and not us.

I think it could be compared to how Jesus chose the Jew, Saul, instead of a Christian, to take such a prominent role.

Saul was attacking his people and Jesus was not happy with him.

But instead of punishing him, Jesus made himself known to Saul. (Acts 9:3-5)

Then he used him to carry out tough, dangerous work for the rest of his life. (2Co 2:4, 5, 9)

I think it is similar with the Jews.

Jehovah is not happy with the Jews. (Daniel 9:3-19)

Jehovah will make Himself know to the Jews. (Joel 2:27)

Those who proclaim the message of doom will no doubt suffer for it, like Paul did.

As for the topic of Peter changing the words of Joel's prophecy from "After that", to "In the last days", i think i cover my reasoning thoroughly in the article.

You said "the apostle Peter tells us exactly what’s meant by "in those days."

Perhaps you didn't read my article on this, because actually Peter completely ignores his change of wording and gives no reason for it at all. On the contrary, he quickly changes the subject.

Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:28, 29) says that the holy spirit being poured out would cause dreams and visions and prophesying, not the speaking in tongues that happened in 33 C.E.

And as Joel says, that part of the prophecy will be fulfilled "in those days" (Joel 2:29) before Armageddon, not way back in Peter's day. (Joel 2:31)

:^)
Dave

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E has responded, but since it is about my article about Joel, i put the response in: "The Prophecy of Joel - comments"

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