(From S - 03-16-2021)

Rebuttal to the fact that Jesus was in anyway fearful of his sacrificial death because of his being flesh.

This is in no way to appear confrontational, but rather to present my beliefs concerning this subject, still I do respect your desire in searching truth and sharing your findings, as I look to do in my comments in red, I only hope this may shed some light as we all wish to heed our Master’s direction to be light bearers

“Let this cup pass away from me”

The Study Note for Matthew 26:39 says this:

"Jesus no doubt felt great concern over the reproach that his death as one charged with blasphemy and sedition could bring on God, moving him to pray that this “cup” pass away from him."

Here is the whole quote from within that scripture, followed by the parallel scripture quotes:

(Matthew 26:39) “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

(Mark 14:36) “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you; remove this cup from me. Yet, not what I want, but what you want.”

(Luke 22:42) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”

Jesus said "let this cup pass away from me", "remove this cup from me", "remove this cup from me". Jesus is well known for redirecting attention away from himself and towards his Father. (Mr 10:18) If Jehovah's reputation was on the line it seems to me that Jesus would have referred to that instead of himself by saying something like this: "Do not let your name be reproached."

Next Jesus said "not as I will", "not what I want", "not my will" making it perfectly clear that it was not his wish to die.

Then he said "but as you will", "but what you want”, "but yours take place” so that all would know that he, a perfect man equal to Adam, was fully willing to do God's will, even though it was against his own wishes, unlike Adam who chose his own desires over obedience to God.

Why did it matter? Because if Jesus wanted to die then he would merely be fulfilling his own desires and not God's. Or if it wasn't that big of a deal to Jesus, then doing things Jehovah's way wouldn't really count for much either. No, but Jesus had to feel strongly about it for his decision to have value. For instance if you wanted to prove your young child's obedience to you, so you put out cookies and told him not to eat them, it wouldn't be much of a test if your child only mildly liked the kind of cookies you set out and was indifferent to them.

The following scriptures show just how strongly Jesus felt about it:

(Matthew 26:37, 38) And taking along Peter and the two sons of Zebʹe·dee, he began to feel grieved and to be greatly troubled. ³⁸ Then he said to them: “I am deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.”

(Luke 22:44) But he was in such agony that he kept praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.

The point was that this perfect and obedient man would choose God's will over his own.

Perhaps the words of Jesus' prayer were set down in writing for the record to counter Adam's unfaithful act and to prove that the human race is not all bad and therefore worthy of redemption. Because Jesus, a true human with all of our weaknesses and desires, willingly chose to submit to Jehovah even to death, against his own very strong and intrinsic desires.

Temptation

(Matthew 26:41) Keep on the watch and pray continually, so that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.”

(Mark 14:38) Keep on the watch and pray continually, so that you do not come into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.”

(Luke 22:40-46) On arriving at the place, he said to them: “Carry on prayer so that you do not enter into temptation.” ⁴¹ And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw away, and he bent his knees and began to pray, ⁴² saying: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” ⁴³ Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. ⁴⁴ But he was in such agony that he kept praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground. ⁴⁵ When he rose from prayer and went to the disciples, he found them slumbering, exhausted from grief. ⁴⁶ He said to them: “Why are you sleeping? Get up and keep praying, so that you do not enter into temptation.”

What temptations were the apostles in danger of giving in to there in the garden of Gethsemane while they slept? Though Jesus seemed to easily fend off the temptations of the devil after his baptism (Luke 4:5-13) the temptation to avoid death had a much stronger pull on him. Perhaps Jesus was not asking his apostles to pray just because of temptation to themselves, but to join him in a collective prayer to ward off temptation since he was intensely struggling with his own. No doubt he knew that the apostles were humble and generous in their prayers and would not pray just for themselves, but would request help and strengthening for all of them, including for Jesus.

How can this be, As our Lord Himself reprimanded Peter for even thinking such a thing.(Mt.16:22,23), But rather it is my belief, that his love for Jehovah was so Great He did not wish to be associated with the thought or even the notion that he be convicted as a Blasphemer against his Father in any way as this is consistent throughout his life. (Jn.5:30, Jn.4:34,)

Jesus said "the flesh is weak.” He did not say "your flesh is weak", but "the flesh is weak". That included Jesus' own flesh. Yes the intense natural desires of his humanity were a potential stumbling block to him:

(Matthew 16:23) But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

"...those of men." Jesus was a man, which is why Peter's words were a stumbling block to him.

When Jesus said "The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.” he was also referring to himself, further identifying the reason for his fervent prayers. And his prayerful request for strength so as not to give in to temptation was granted:

I firmly believe Jesus was referring to imperfect man, or it could be reasoned that the perfect man Adam was susceptible or leaned toward a selfish inclination and should that be the case would it be righteous on Jehovah’s part  by condemning him to death, still, one may argue, the desire  to preserve one's life and the eating of fruit are two different concepts, but I would disagree to this because Adam had full knowledge and was by no means ignorant of God’s commandment and the consequences of his disobedience (Gen.2:17) so his selfish actions cannot be associated with his will to live but rather in his committing the idolatrous act of listening to his wife rather than his God who requires exclusive devotion (Gen.3:17, Ex.34:14, Num.25:11)

(Hebrews 5:7) During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.

The Greek word used here for Death can and is used both literally and figuratively, and being since throughout his ministry he had no objections as regards his coming to earth to die a sacrificial death, it is my contention that Jesus was referring not to his death, but the kind of death he would suffer and again that is as a convicted blasphemer, furthermore among the meanings of the words to be saved from death is the thought to be made whole, and the fact that he was favorably heard by his father leads me to believe His prayer as not to save his earthly life, for in prayer, recorded at Jn.17:4,5 where he sought not to be spared his life, which he knew was to be offered as a propitiatory sacrifice, but to return to the glory with which he had by his Father’s side before the world was, interestingly the word used for glory carries the thought having dignity, which would be consistent with the fact that he cared about his standing as it is related to and with the Father Jehovah God.

Silent Lamb

Jesus did not have to run away if he wished to escape capture and death. With mere words he could have secured his release. (John 7:45, 46) But he chose not to, which is why, although he actually did speak to Pilate, he was described as a silent lamb because he did not say anything in order to gain his freedom.

(Isaiah 53:7) He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted, But he would not open his mouth. He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter, Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers, And he would not open his mouth. (Acts 8:32)

(John 19:10) So Pilate said to him: “Are you refusing to speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and I have authority to execute you?”

(John 7:45, 46) Then the officers went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, and the latter said to them: “Why did you not bring him in?” ⁴⁶ The officers replied: “Never has any man spoken like this.”

Even without words Jesus could have easily escaped, as he did when the large crowd wanted to throw him off of the brow of the mountain.

(Luke 4:28-30) Now all those hearing these things in the synagogue became filled with anger, ²⁹ and they rose up and rushed him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain on which their city had been built, in order to throw him down headlong. ³⁰ But he went right through their midst and continued on his way.

Glorified

(John 12:23) But Jesus answered them: “The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified.

What "hour" is Jesus speaking of? (John 7:30) The hour of his sacrificial death. He will be glorified at that hour (moment).

Here Jesus is also talking about his imminent death. Sending out Judas to finish his act of betrayal Jesus set in motion what was to come. Jesus points out that not only will he be glorified by his death, but God will also be glorified by it.

(John 13:31, 32) When, therefore, he had gone out, Jesus said: “Now the Son of man is glorified, and God is glorified in connection with him. ³² God himself will glorify him, and he will glorify him immediately.

Though Peter may have died in a different manner than Jesus, he too was executed and died a martyr's death. And yet Jesus said his death "would glorify God", not bring reproach upon Him.

(John 21:19) He said this to indicate by what sort of death he would glorify God. After he said this, he said to him: “Continue following me.”

Reproach

I can find no scriptural evidence that reproach was brought upon Jehovah in any way by Jesus' death. Though it would seem that Jesus himself was shamed by his death.

I believe this to be of a narrow viewpoint in that Jesus’ food was to do the will of his Father and to finish his work (Jn.4:34)  It is apparent throughout the scriptures that Jesus (prehuman or otherwise) loves his Father and to be associated with at all times (Prov.8:30) and as was spoken of above It does not say that Jesus’ sought to again have the glory he had before the world was, but the glory he had at his father’s side that he enjoyed before the world was. So this reproach or shame (to Him) wasn’t limited to him as an individual but to the uncontestable love he has for his Father as he is the image of the very God he serves.

(Hebrews 6:6) but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.

Blasphemy and Sedition

Let's consider the Study Note for Matthew 26:39 again:

"Jesus no doubt felt great concern over the reproach that his death as one charged with blasphemy and sedition could bring on God,..."

In reading the scriptures that describe the treatment Jesus received at his death i found no evidence that those mocking him had anything negative to say about Jehovah. (Mt 27:27-44; Mr 15:16-32; Lu 23:35-39)

Thinking about it logically, the people of the time could be put into one of two categories: those that believed Christ to be the Son of God, and those that did not. (Any who did not even know who Jesus was would fall into the second category.)

Now those that believed in Christ knew the charges of blasphemy and sedition were false charges. After all, someone cannot be blaspheming if he is telling the truth.

Those that did not believe Christ to be the Son of God may have believed him to be guilty of blasphemy and sedition, but since they did not believe he was God's Son they would not have affiliated Jesus' so called "crimes" with God, and therefore no reproach would have been directed at Jehovah. At Matthew 27:63 they even called him an "impostor". And in the next verse they refer to his "deception" showing that they did not believe his claim to be God's son.

So i can think of no reason why Christ's death would have brought any reproach upon Jehovah. Can you?

What do you think of this hypothesis?

S

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(From me 03-16-2021)

Thanks a bunch for writing S!!

And thank you for being clear that you are not trying to be confrontational.

I know i come across that way in my writings as well, though i don't mean to.

So please know that i too write this without any animosity or negativity. :^)

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What temptations were the apostles in danger of giving in to there in the garden of Gethsemane while they slept? Though Jesus seemed to easily fend off the temptations of the devil after his baptism (Luke 4:5-13) the temptation to avoid death had a much stronger pull on him. Perhaps Jesus was not asking his apostles to pray just because of temptation to themselves, but to join him in a collective prayer to ward off temptation since he was intensely struggling with his own. No doubt he knew that the apostles were humble and generous in their prayers and would not pray just for themselves, but would request help and strengthening for all of them, including for Jesus.

How can this be, As our Lord Himself reprimanded Peter for even thinking such a thing.(Mt.16:22,23),

By "this" i assume that you are referring to Jesus' fear of giving in to the temptation to avoid death and not go through with the sacrifice of his life.

You said that Peter was reprimanded for "thinking such a thing", and gave a scripture reference:

(Matthew 16:22, 23) At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.” ²³ But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

In the previous verse Jesus tells them that he will suffer and die.

(Matthew 16:21) From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.

Peter tells Jesus "you will not have this happen to you". In your referenced scriptures Jesus is rebuking Peter for telling him that he would not die. Peter is not talking about Jesus giving in to temptation. So i don't think those scriptures are related.

Have i misunderstood what you are saying?

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But rather it is my belief, that his love for Jehovah was so Great He did not wish to be associated with the thought or even the notion that he (could) be convicted as a Blasphemer against his Father in any way as this is consistent throughout his life. (Jn.5:30, Jn.4:34,)

Your referenced scriptures:

(John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

(John 4:34) Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

In my article are scriptures that show that Jesus believed his death would bring glory to Jehovah. (See the subheading "Glorified")

Is your belief scripturally based? Do you know of any scriptures that tell us of Jesus' fear of being convicted as a blasphemer?

---

When Jesus said "The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.” he was also referring to himself, further identifying the reason for his fervent prayers. And his prayerful request for strength so as not to give in to temptation was granted:

I firmly believe Jesus was referring to imperfect man, or it could be reasoned that the perfect man Adam was susceptible or leaned toward a selfish inclination and should that be the case would it be righteous on Jehovah’s part  by condemning him to death, still, one may argue, the desire  to preserve one's life and the eating of fruit are two different concepts, but I would disagree to this because Adam had full knowledge and was by no means ignorant of God’s commandment and the consequences of his disobedience (Gen.2:17) so his selfish actions cannot be associated with his will to live but rather in his committing the idolatrous act of listening to his wife rather than his God who requires exclusive devotion (Gen.3:17, Ex.34:14, Num.25:11)

Jesus himself tells us that Peter's words were a potential stumbling block to him:

(Matthew 16:23) But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

The spirit lead Jesus off into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan:

(Matthew 4:1) Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.

If Jesus was not potentially susceptible to temptation, this would have been a pointless exercise.

Is your belief scripturally based? Do you know of any scriptures where Jesus tells us that he is impervious to temptation?

---

(Hebrews 5:7) During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.

The Greek word used here for Death can and is used both literally and figuratively,

Can you please give me one example where that Greek word for death (thanatou) is used figuratively?

---

and being since throughout his ministry he had no objections as regards his coming to earth to die a sacrificial death, it is my contention that Jesus was referring not to his death, but the kind of death he would suffer and again that is as a convicted blasphemer, furthermore among the meanings of the words to be saved from death is the thought to be made whole, and the fact that he was favorably heard by his father leads me to believe His prayer as not to save his earthly life, for in prayer, recorded at Jn.17:4,5 where he sought not to be spared his life, which he knew was to be offered as a propitiatory sacrifice, but to return to the glory with which he had by his Father’s side before the world was, interestingly the word used for glory carries the thought having dignity, which would be consistent with the fact that he cared about his standing as it is related to and with the Father Jehovah God.

Your referenced scripture tells us that Jesus' work glorified Jehovah. And offering himself up as a sacrifice was a big part of that work that he was given to do.

(John 17:4, 5) I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. ⁵ So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Is your belief scripturally based? Do you know of any scriptures where Jesus tells us that it was not his death, but the kind of death that he would suffer that he was asking to be spared from?

---

I can find no scriptural evidence that reproach was brought upon Jehovah in any way by Jesus' death. Though it would seem that Jesus himself was shamed by his death.

I believe this to be of a narrow viewpoint in that Jesus’ food was to do the will of his Father and to finish his work (Jn.4:34)  It is apparent throughout the scriptures that Jesus (prehuman or otherwise) loves his Father and to be associated with at all times (Prov.8:30) and as was spoken of above It does not say that Jesus’ sought to again have the glory he had before the world was, but the glory he had at his father’s side that he enjoyed before the world was. So this reproach or shame (to Him) wasn’t limited to him as an individual but to the uncontestable love he has for his Father as he is the image of the very God he serves.

Is your belief scripturally based? Do you know of any scriptures where Jesus tells us that he feels that his death would bring reproach or shame on Jehovah?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts S!

I look forward to your response to the questions i have asked of you here.

I also ask that you rebut the other scriptures in my article that contradict your theory.

YB

:^)
Dave

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