(from DK) 03-05-2019

Hello again Dave!

I saw your updated document and was surprised that no one has responded so I thought I might take a stab at a reply.

Since your article goes into literal events/geographical references I hope you don't mind that my response has no real scriptural backup other than Matt 24:45 mentioning an appointment, a specific person, group or class chosen to disseminate proper food at the proper time.

That being said, I have always agreed with the "right, nay suggestion, to rant" for lack of a better term since we are encouraged to follow the example in Acts 17:11 to think for ourselves.

However, where a very specific prophesy is interpreted and explained in detail, I wouldn't presume to publicly disagree as it may promote a lack of unity. In the annual meeting, the slave specifically revealed that Russia and her allies are the current King of the North (as time has progressed the world powers against God's chosen people have changed).

So, let's look at a map. Also let's consider that directions are extremely relative. Turkey is very much South of Russia in every respect. Is Turkey an ally of Russia, perhaps, that's a political statement that could change daily. Even if it were so at any particular time, why would Turkey be the relative point of reference versus any other ally?

Here's my rant and my early morning crew disagree but a rants a rant... To the east of Russia is the United States. Relativity.

The bottom line is that none of it really matters because it will become obvious and we will be informed when needed by the slave class. But don't let that stop you by any means from having fun interpreting events. I would never suggest stopping that unless it takes away from your service or focus on Jah! That would be like saying, don't think about whether we'll eat meat or not in the new system because we'll find out soon enough. Ok, fine. But I still want to discuss it. Lol.

Have a great night Dave!

DK

-----------------------

(me - Dave) 03-07-2019

Thanks for the email DK.

I think of the term "rant" as an angry answer or comment, but i understand what you mean since your response is not expressed in anger at all. The "Lol" at the end identifies your state of mind, as i hope my textual smiley face at the end of my articles do as well. :^)

Just to be clear to you and any who read this, i do not feel any negativity at all, and i really hope that is not how i come across in my articles. Unfortunately you can't easily show a happy attitude in text without filling it with those cheesy emoticons. And i think that people tend to apply their own emotions to text they read too.

Yes, the slave class do provide food, but we are also charged with feeding ourselves with the truth from the Bible (1Ti 4:15) and making sure that what the GB do give us is accurate, (Acts 17:11) as you know and pointed out.

"However, where a very specific prophesy is interpreted and explained in detail, I wouldn't presume to publicly disagree as it may promote a lack of unity."

Since my Ramblings sub-folder is in a private folder on my server, and only those JW's who are interested in such things read it, i don't think it can be considered public.

I have the transcript of that talk by Br Morris in my Transcripts folder: "Transcript - Anthony Morris - This is it"
(I also have his talk singled out as a separate talk in my Talks folder.) If you look at the transcript you will see, or rather not see, any real specifics that seem to back up the idea that "Russia and its allies" are the new king of the north.

The first reasoning he uses is the pushing. (Da 11:40) Many countries around the world have been engaged in pushing with the United States utilizing "electronic espionage, computer attacks, trade wars". And the "hostile flooding into surrounding territory" i assume refers to Ukraine, which is not part of the USA or even part of NATO. So i don't see how that can be described as Russia pushing the US.

Br Morris also referenced war games as an example of pushing, though military simulations have been occurring on a very regular basis for a very long time by just about every government on the planet. And as armies and allies increase so do the sizes of the simulations. You don't get any good at anything or work out the kinks if you don't practice. And the simulations are not done between two governments that are at odds with each other so they are not pushing their opponents. Though it can be said to be a show of force, that show is on display for all to see. So if it is going to be described as a pushing then it is a pushing against every other government not taking part in the simulation. The "Smarter Every Day" guy just did a video about RIMPAC that you may find interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOTYgcdNrXE

That's it. That is all that Br Morris puts forward as the reason for their definition of who the king of the north is. So it is really not "explained in detail" by any stretch of the imagination.

" Is Turkey an ally of Russia"

I don't think that Daniel 11:44 implies that the reports out of the north and east are from either an ally or an enemy. For instance an ally to the north could share information with him, or spies could send a report about an adversary to the north. Both scenarios fit.

Also note that after the "pushing" of Daniel 11:40 many things occur before the reports out of the north and east move him to action. Verses 40b through 43 tell of wars and invasions carried out against many countries, after which the king of the north will "rule over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt." (Da 11:43) That indicates the passage of a decent amount of time. I don't think Armageddon is that far into the future.

I think that in my article about the end-time kings i successfully show how all of the different prophecies in the Bible related to the end-time kings work together and point to Turkey. Did you see anything that you thought was in error? (Don't try and respond about the whole article. I think it would be best to just pick one thing, and after we discuss that you can then select another aspect you think i got wrong.)

What about who is attacked? Or why they are saved? What about the list of 8 kings per Revelation? Did you see any errors in my assessment of any of that?

If you did not find anything that you think i got wrong then what makes you think that Russia and its allies are the new king of the north? :^)

Also, the article about the end-time kings does not include other prophecies that also have to work with that outcome. For instance the prophecy of the cry of peace and security. I think my article about that also fits in well, as does my article about who Babylon the great is.

I think that the biggest problem is the theory that the term "Israel" refers to JW's here in the end, that they are the ones to be saved. So the GB search for things on the world scene that align with that ideal and ignore the rest. Unfortunately that blocks them from seeing how what is going on really relates to prophecy. I think the end-time kings article also shows the error of that idea that we are symbolic Israel.

I also think that line of thinking by the GB should not be held against them because it is fulfilling Jesus' prophecy regarding his true disciples: "the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it." (Mt 24:3, 44)

"we will be informed when needed by the slave class"

If you rely on imperfect men to tell you what to think you will be no better off than those in Christendom. :^)

"But don't let that stop you by any means from having fun interpreting events. I would never suggest stopping that unless it takes away from your service or focus on Jah!"

Truthfully, my spirituality, my love for Jehovah and His Son, my belief in the Bible, and my joy and satisfaction for spiritual things have never been so high since i stopped fearing the consequences for alternate thoughts that weren't dictated to us by the GB and started 'making sure'!! Now the GB say to do that very thing, but on a local level it is still scorned and can get you falsely labeled. (you know what i mean.) I think it stems from an unhealthy (spiritually) and unscriptural placement of the GB on a high untouchable pedestal, even though their own words are counter to that, as their quotes in my "About These Files" doc show.

"none of it really matters"

That is so true! As i say in the un-redacted version of my 2017 QFR article:

Whether you are dead or alive, regardless of what you do, Armageddon will happen; justice will prevail; no one who deserves life will be killed at Armageddon, and no one who deserves death will live through it; God's kingdom will be set up; and paradise will be restored. You cannot change or affect any of that. The only question that matters to us individually is: Will you be there? That is the only thing we can affect. Your continued existence is the only thing that you have any control over.

So as long as we are following bible principles and avoiding the condemned practices of Galatians 5:19-21 (and similar scriptures) we will "inherit God's kingdom."

Thanks again for writing!

:^)
Dave

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(from Jb) 03-10-2019

What the king of the north means;- Practical version...

my memory (true i think ) is of sitting on a couch as we covered the Your Will Be Done book in Miami during the Cuban crisis 1961, while at the book study middle aged jws cared either too much or too little about the king of the north.

For me it meant being the only 7 or 8 year old that knew a fair amount of ancient history and had some idea of current events at school.  

the society even then was giving out two lines of reasonings. one - they had been right about quite a number of predictions, ie. wwii. but two - also they are not prophets, only declaring the meaning of events After the fact ... (your choice.?)

i think that just as it was good for every generation during the last two thousand years to think they were in the time of the end, so also i think it is good for every witness to always look for the king of the north and expect him to attack at any time.

watchtower this week: Is 43:10, fn. we are witnesses not just for his name to people, but in History we are witnesses for Jehovah in his Legal Case against his enemies, so we have to know what is going on in the world, and declare the good and condemn his attackers.

(Pray for the governing body, their task is beyond our comprehension. if i have faith problems, its when i consider their duties.)

good for you to be watching the world.

details are everything. events of our times are a hologram.      hologram structures  are  going to be the next   level of     perspective.

Jb

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(from me) 03-10-2019

Hi Jb

Thanks for sharing!

It is interesting that they were giving "two lines of reasonings." And it sure is easier to know things "after" they happen. :^)

I agree that we should always stay ready. If Jesus told the people that Armageddon would come 2,000 years after they died, there wouldn't be much incentive for them to be good.

"Pray for the governing body, their task is beyond our comprehension." Yes, their job is definitely enormous!

"good for you to be watching the world." Thank you.

"events of our times are a hologram." Yes, and i see the prophecies in the Bible individually as single dimension parts that when put together form a three dimensional description of today's "hologram" with its many different events going on in the world. That was my goal with the End-Time Kings article, to try and assemble them into that single 3-D piece that reveals the outcome of the last days. I hope i was successful.

:^)
Dave

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(from me) 06-18-2019

The following recent news article helps identify the actors in the region of Israel, and who's side they are on. I added colors to the text to help group them together, though the description in the text does that well enough. If you look at the map i colored and added at the end, you can see that the ones to the south of Israel are not considered a threat to Israel. And the ones to the north are self proclaimed enemies of Israel. The dots represent the many groups on the ground that Turkey and Iran are backing and using as proxies.

The point of this news article was to basically set the scene for the players in the arena, then talk about who would benefit from a victory in Algeria, Sudan, and Libya. I don't think any of those places are of any consequence to Israel, whichever side they end up on. Those countries are 95 percent desert, and any groups coming from there to attack Israel would have to cross their own deserts, and then Egypt's desert, squeeze through the area north of the Gulf of Suez, cross the Suez canal, and then finally make their way across the Sinai desert. So no, i don't think they are any threat.

Yemen falls into the same category. If they wind up against Israel, they would have to get through Saudi Arabia first. Besides, they are also mostly desert and barren mountain terrain.

But as the news article set the scene, it described well the actors in the region and who is allied with whom. Jordan, just east of Israel, basically has the opinion of "Leave me out of it." So they don't seem to be a player in the region at all.

News Article:

Arab Spring: The Second Coming?

by Jonathan Spyer
The Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security
May 1, 2019

The current instability in Algeria, Sudan and Libya has led to some excited western media coverage heralding a second chapter of the Arab Spring. Those celebrating should be careful what they wish for. The Arab uprisings of 2010-11 and the subsequent years began with great hope but with the partial exception of Tunisia, left only strife, war and state fragmentation in their wake. One can only wish the protestors much luck, while noting that the record suggests that societies lacking civil society traditions and institutions are unlikely to achieve better governance through mass action.

Events in Sudan and Libya are of significance, however, in another way. Both countries, like Yemen, and Syria before them, are currently acting as arenas in an ongoing regional cold war. This contest pits western-aligned Arab Gulf states Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates, along with Sisis's Egypt, against the Muslim-Brotherhood and Sunni Islamist oriented axis of Erdogan's Turkey and the Emirate of Qatar. In both the Libyan and the Sudanese case, these rival blocs are backing opposing players.

It is of further interest to note that in this contest, each of the two opposing camps makes use of representatives of one or another of the forms of political organization that have proved most of consequence in the Arab world over the last decade.

Outside of the Arab monarchies, and again with the notable exception of Tunisia, there are two forms of political organization of consequence in the Arabic-speaking world: Islamist movements, and authoritarian military regimes. In every case, the Turks and Qataris back the Islamists. The Egyptians, Saudis and Emiratis, meanwhile, offer their support to the military men. In these contests, more often than not, the mobilized people in the public square tend to play the role of extras. They are summoned by the Islamists or the generals to create the illusion of popular will, before being dismissed once again.

In Sudan, popular protest has led to the dismissal of President Omar al-Bashir, one of the longest serving heads of state in the Arab world. The crowds have not yet dispersed and are demanding that his successor, General Abd al-Fatah al Burhan immediately begin the process of handing over power to civilians. General Burhan, meanwhile, intends to rule for a transition period of up to two years.

As of now, the protestors remain camped outside the army's headquarters. The army has offered some concessions. Defense Minister Awad Ibn Auf, who announced the resignation of al-Bashir, stepped down after only a day in office amid calls for a civilian government. But the initiative at least for now appears to be with the armed forces. This is because the crowds lack coercive power. For as long as the armed forces do not themselves split, the army looks set to wait out the protests, and perhaps in time to come up with a civilian leader of its own liking.

Should the assembled crowds, or an element of them, seek to test the matter by force, the historical record suggests that the beneficiaries will be the representatives of political Islam. In the matter of armed insurgency at street level, they currently have no peers in the Arabic-speaking world. See Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Palestinian territories, Lebanon etc.

The Egyptians, Saudis and Emiratis are backing the army. Turkey and Qatar, meanwhile, are furious that the Islamist-sympathetic al-Bashir is out.

﻿In Libya, the National Army of General Khalifa Haftar is advancing toward Tripoli – seat of the Islamist dominated, internationally recognized government. ﻿

Once again, Egypt, UAE and Saudi Arabia are the backers of Haftar, Turkey and Qatar support the Islamists in Tripoli. In this case, the people are not in the streets. Libya has had its moment of people power. But the power dynamics and the rivalries are familiar.

Israel does not interfere in the internal processes of Arab politics, of course. But Jerusalem's preferred victor in this intra-Arab struggle is not in doubt. The backers of the generals are Israel's closest partners in the Arab world. Saudi Arabia and UAE share Israel's primary concerns regarding Iranian ambitions, and its secondary ones regarding Sunni political Islam. Egypt is concerned mainly with the latter issue, but the intensity of its worries has led to the highest level of cooperation with Israel in the security arena since the peace accords of 1979.

The camp of the generals is the camp of stability, the status quo, and alliance with the West. The other side is with the notion of Islamic revival to the perceived glories of the Islamic past. Its partisans and allies are by definition the enemies of the West and Israel. The very fact of Jewish sovereignty in Jerusalem is seen as a reminder of how low the Islamic world has fallen.

But it is worth noting that neither of these sides is for civil society, institutions, secularization, representative government. The forces that do support all these exist but are immensely weak. For as long as this remains the case, the Arabic-speaking world is likely to remain under-developed and dysfunctional – whether generals or Islamists have the upper hand in any particular context.

Remedying the poverty of choices facing Arab publics is, of course, a matter that only Arabic-speaking societies ultimately can address. Until they do so, it will be in the interest of western governments to support the conservative and authoritarian forces preventing the disaster of further victories for political Islam.

As noted above, the Israeli interest in both Libya and Sudan is not in doubt. In Sudan, the departure of President Omar al-Bashir is entirely positive from the Israeli perspective. Under al-Bashir's 30-year rule, Sudan made itself available as a conduit for the transfer of Iranian weapons to the Gaza Strip, and acted as a portal for the entry of the Revolutionary Guards into Africa (the IRGC began to train Sudan's army, and Sudan offered naval facilities for Iran's use). For economic reasons, al-Bashir reversed course in 2015. But al-Bashir's relations with Turkey and Qatar and the army's support from Egypt, UAE and Saudi Arabia mean that his departure remains without doubt a net positive from the Israeli point of view.

In Libya, similarly, the victory of Haftar, backed by UAE, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, would be a net positive for Israel – it would prevent the emergence and entrenchment of an ally of Turkey, Qatar and the Muslim brotherhood on the coast facing Europe. Though in this case it should be noted that even if Haftar takes Tripoli, Libya will be far from a return to stability under authoritarian rule. The south of the country remains largely ungoverned and penetrated by elements of the Islamic State. The west, meanwhile, harbors powerful Islamist militias with considerable public support who are likely to attempt a continued insurgency against Haftar even if his forces take the capital.

Source: https://www.meforum.org/58659/arab-spring-the-second-coming?

I color coded the following map to the best of my understanding, showing the allies as defined in the above news article.

"the Islamists" = fighting groups on the ground (dots on map)

"Generals" (military men) = legal/official governments of countries

When you consider the prophecy of the king of the north and those who attack Israel with him, the situation on the ground (see map) could not be laid out better to match the prophecies. It also backs up the idea that the prophecy is not symbolic of something else, but is literal.

As for the Gaza Strip, after world war one when the area was taken from the Turks, the United Nations gave to the Jews the area that covers what today is Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and the country of Jordan. The UN named it Palestine.

Then 2 years later the UN decided that they would split Palestine, one fourth for the Jews, and the other 3/4 for the Muslims living in the area. The part they gave to the Muslims to live in was named Jordan.

Many of the Muslims living in Israel didn't want to move, so Israel said they could stay. Of course, everyone knows what happens when you let those who hate you and want you dead live within your walls. So when the Muslims living in the area where the Gaza strip and the West Bank area became a lot of trouble Israel made a deal to turn over control of the area to their Muslim leaders, in the hopes of peace. The Muslim leaders in the West Bank didn't cause too much trouble afterwards, but the Gaza Strip just kept (keeps) getting worse and worse.

Here is a very good video that explains it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ReF4UUa4E

After coloring that map i realized something. The waters of the Euphrates River do not stop once they reach the Persian Gulf. They flow through the Persian Gulf, then the Strait of Hormuz, and then the Gulf of Oman before they reach the Arabian Sea.

The waters of the Euphrates thus flow in between the opposing prophetic "kings" and their major allies. (red line)

(Rev 9:14, 15) “Untie the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphraʹtes.” ¹⁵ And the four angels who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year were untied to kill a third of the people.

Also: I wonder if the Euphrates River will actually be "dried up" in the future.

(Rev 16:12) The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphraʹtes, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the rising of the sun.

The river's head waters are in Turkey, and the flow of water has already been a concern, as the following 2018 news article points out:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-turkey/turkey-halts-filling-tigris-dam-after-iraq-complains-of-water-shortages-idUSKCN1J320X

Turkey is even threatening the flow of the Tigris river, which also comes from Turkey and provides drinking water for Iraq. Here is a 2019 news article about that:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/289229/World/Region/Turkish-dams-on-Euphrates-and-Tigris-A-water-dilem.aspx

If Turkey did divert the waters of the two rivers, that would be like the time when the waters were diverted by king Cyrus so he could attack Babylon. Back then it was so his soldiers could cross over the river bed.

Today the result would be removing the drinking water for many of the inhabitants of Syria and Iraq. That would drastically weaken the governments and their armies that are there in those countries allowing the king of the north and his allies to more easily cross over on their way to Israel.

Turkey could dry up the waters to "prepare the way" for the attack on Israel.

Interesting things are going on.

:^)
Dave

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(from me) 07-13-2019

I was thinking about recent goings on in the middle east, which got me thinking about
1st Thessalonians 5:3...

(1 Thessalonians 5:3) Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

... and Daniel 11:44.

(Daniel 11:44) “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction.

Iran has been promising to restart its nuclear program and has now exceeded not only the uranium stockpiling limit imposed upon it but also the enrichment limit. So it seems to be making good on its promises.

Israel sees this as an extreme threat.

Israel is well known for taking pre-emptive action where its own security is involved and when other governments don't do much more than talk. If Israel bombs the Iranian nuclear sites to remove what it considers to be a very serious threat, that bombing of their Muslim brethren and friends to their east could 'enrage' Turkey and trigger Turkey into launching an attack on Israel. (Eze 38:4)

No doubt many other groups in the region would gladly join with Turkey in attacking Israel, their hated enemy. Turkey would surely know this and count on their support. (Eze 38:9) Ezekiel says "many peoples" not 'many nations', which well describes the many fighting groups in Syria and the surrounding area that are not the official army of any country.

What if Israel's response to its bombing of Iran is a proclamation that it has reestablished peace and security for itself and for its neighbors from the Iranian threat? That proclamation would have some merit given the real threat of Iran having nuclear weapons. And if Israel did a thorough enough job with its bombings, that would go a long way towards her "dwelling in security." (Eze 38:14)

And if Turkey did respond by attacking Israel with the backing of the other forces in the region, that could be the fulfillment of the two scriptures above, which immediately precedes Armageddon.

As for the reports out of the north, i don't know what those reports would be, but the King of the north is not said to act against those to his north.

Perhaps it is not the words “Peace and security!” that triggers the attack on Israel, but the actions that Israel takes to bring about that so-called peace and security.

You may not know when a pregnant woman's birth pains will hit, but they are very expected. Her belly has grown large and the right amount of time has passed. The signs are all there, and it is inevitable. (1Th 5:3b) Like the leaves on a fig tree signaling the nearness of summer. (Mt 24:32)

This is a lot of speculation, but it does stir the imagination. :^)

Here are some videos that may help you better understand the situation in the middle east.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veMFCFyOwFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFpanWNgfQY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DbdBIuFrIE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uLbeQlwjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6L9mS9ti6o

:^)
Dave

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(From J) 05-27-2021

In your article on end-time kings, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying when talking about the kings of the north being aligned with the world governments through time. What do the kings of the north or south have to do with the world powers.

As I've always known it, the world powers throughout time have been the ones to actively persecute the Jews. I never heard it compared with the king of the north. What am I not thinking of? 

Egypt

Assyria 

Babylon

Medo-Persian

Greek

Rome

UK/US

UN

This would be 8 kings.

Let me know.

J

-------------------------------

Hi J (05-30-2021)

Great question!

If the 8 kings on the list (Re 17:10-11) are those that "persecuted the Jews", as you say, then that would rule out the UK/US and the UN since they have not persecuted the Jews.

If the list of 8 kings is simply a list of the dominant empires of the world, then the Ottoman Turks should definitely be on that list. JW publications show the UK/US as the 7th king, after Rome. But Rome (the 6th king of Re 17:10) was conquered by the Ottoman Turks. They destroyed the Roman empire and replaced it as the dominant world power for 500 years. And they became even larger than the Roman empire ever was.

The Turks also dominated the Jews until WW1, which makes them eligible to be on the list of 8 kings, if that is the prerequisite.

Daniel's prophecy of the king of the north (Dan 11:1-2) begins with the Medo-Persian empire, which is the 4th on the list of 8 kings at Revelation 17:10-11.

The next king of the north is Greece. (Da 11:3) That matches the list of kings of Revelation 17:10-11 which has Greece as the 5th king.

According to the Daniel's Prophecy book (p. 231 ¶ 2) Rome becomes the dominant empire after Greece. That also parallels the list of 8 kings at Revelation 17:10-11 which has Rome as the 6th king.

While Revelation 17:10-11 merely references the empires that rise and fall, Daniel gives the details of the successive kings that rule within those kingdoms all while each empire remains dominant. Taking that into consideration, those two prophecies are in sync.

So whether the requirement is ruling over the Jews, or being a dominant world power, the Ottoman empire more than qualifies and should be the next one on the list after Rome, both on the list of the kings of the north of Daniel chapter 11, and the list of 8 kings of Revelation 17:10-11.

Turkey (Ottoman empire) was a member of the League of Nations, and has been a member of the United Nations since its founding. Turkey is also a member of NATO. It definitely falls in line with the prophecy of Revelation 17:13.

(Revelation 17:11-13) And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. ¹² “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. ¹³ These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. (League of Nations/United Nations)

At the beginning of my article i said:

"Since all of those prophecies are about the same event our understanding of each prophecy must harmonize with each of the others."

Since both of those prophecies are about the same series of kings (empires) down to the end (Da 11:45 & Re 17:14), the kings of the north in Daniel and the 8 kings in Revelation would of course have to match up.

What do you think?

:^)
Dave

------------------------------

(From J) 05-30-2021

Hi Dave,

OK, here is what I think, but like you, I'm looking for truth. 

I just don't see the truth in the line you are saying and here is why.

Hope you like it.

Not sure if the Bible is talking about just the Jews or rather God's people.

During the great wars, 1 and 2, Jehovah's people, spiritual Israel were definitely attacked.

The brothers taking the lead during ww1 were all thrown in jail for most or all of the rest of their lives. The offices in NY were completely shut down, the printing was destroyed and most ones went their own way. Even after the brothers were finally released, they had no equipment to print, and so they held 1 more assembly to see if there was interest or not. If there was no interest, they planned on just shutting everything down but, over 3000 showed up one day and people had to be sent home and the next day they repeated it and over 1500 showed up.

Back then, as I said, the brothers were jailed for something like 40 years, then the work was stopped completely for a time.

That seems like persecution to me and as I said, I'm pretty sure it was Jehovah's people who would be attacked, not just the Jews.

So, because it is Jehovah's people who were attacked by these world governments, and the brothers at ww1 were persecuted to the point of the work stopping, then the Ottomans would still have nothing to do with it as the Ottomans were never considered a world power and they never attacked God's people of the time.

At their peak, the Ottomans were at their best from 1481 to 1566. They were also not a world power but their territory was really only Europe and the Middle East, hardly a world affair. Ottoman empire was also a know safe haven for the Jews. I quote one page as saying, "The experience of Jews in the Ottoman Empire is particularly significant because the region "provided a principal place of refuge for Jews driven out of western Europe by massacres and persecution"

The Turks also were not a world power and are not a world power in the last days.

Now, Rome fell in either two dated depending on world theories. One date is 476 CE and the other is 1453 CE

Also, nowhere does anything say that there was always a world power. At times, and for long periods of time, there were no world powers, only powerful nations.

In 1707 Britain ascended to world power status when they finally swallowed up Scotland.

Also, for the Ottoman empire, it is not functioning in Jehovah's day, or any of the last days for that matter and the Bible shows that the 7th world power would still be functioning in the end.

The Bible is very clear on Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, and then it is very clear that Jehovah's people were attacked by both the US and UK during ww1. They were then attacked again throughout ww2.

No, I see what you are saying, but with what I just pointed out, I don't see it fitting with the Bible or the history of the world either.

Let me know,

J

------------------------------

From me, (05-31-2021)

Thanks for responding J.

Before i can respond i need to better understand your opinion on a couple of things.

Do you agree with JW publications that the first three empires represented by the Kings of the north are Medo-Persia, then Greece, and then Rome?

And do you agree that the 4th, 5th and 6th of the eight kings from Revelation 17:10-11 are also Medo-Persia, then Greece, and then Rome?

:^)

Dave

------------------------------

(From J) 05-31-2021

Hey Dave,

Very good question.

I must say that I never really thought about it in a king of the north type of way.

As far as I can understand, it is all about the cream de la cream, just the top government of the time period was north vs south. Sometimes that government "may" represent the king of the north, or, sometimes it may be the king of the south.

Egypt was a King of the south while Assyria was a king of the north, but only 1 was the world power, at a time, and those powers that mattered interacted with God's people in a negative way.

I've never really understood the rise of the world powers as actually being north or south in the Bible or publications, that I remember anyways although they were that for sure. It has always been world power or KOS or KON.

I have always separated them I guess you can say. If we were talking about world powers, we were talking about world powers, not really talking north or south.

I guess that is the best way to put my understanding anyways.

:) :(

The first or third would have been Babylon

Kings of the north are Medo-Persia, then Greece, and then Rome, as from what I know just whoever was north and south of Jerusalem made them north or south.

So, was MP north, yes, was Greece, MP and Rome, north too, I think, but I'd have to look at the maps.

J

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(from me, Dave) 06-05-2021

I see. Well, to know who each king is we need to follow Bible prophecy through time up until Armageddon, then we have to identify those kings and empires in history. And the "chain of command", so to speak, has to match up with the Bible or we have it wrong.

To know who truly is the king of the north and the 8 kings we have to examine Bible prophecy and follow that through time and not just look at how things are here at the end and make assumptions.

So to identify the correct nation today we need to start with who the Bible clearly identifies in history, then follow that through time. We also need to make sure each identification synchronizes across all end-time-king prophecies, which is what i tried to do with my article.

Daniel clearly identifies the 1st king of the north as the Medo-Persian empire. (Da 11:1,2; 8:20)
The Medo-Persian empire is the 4th king in the list at Revelation 17:10-11.

Next Daniel clearly identifies the next king of the north is Greece. (Da 11:3; 8:21)
Greece is the 5th king in the list at Revelation 17:10-11.

History, the Bible, and JW publications all clearly tell us that Rome becomes the next king of the north after Greece and the 6th king in the list in Revelation. [dp p. 231 ¶ 2] (Da 11:3; Re 17:10-11)

Those kings are not in question. Everyone agrees on who they are. It is the next king after Rome where there is confusion. We can only identify this king by looking at its features and actions as described in Bible prophecy. And then compare that to what has unfolded in history.

First, of course, is its replacement of Rome, the largest of empires to have ever existed on earth till that time. Each of the kings of the north, and each of the 8 kings in the list in Revelation 17:10, 11 all conquered the previous king and took its place and its land. As i pointed out in my article, the Ottoman Empire defeated the Roman Empire and grew to be even larger than the Roman empire ever was, taking from it not only the crown as king of the north, but also (in time) the title as the largest empire to have ever existed on earth.

To not accept that the Turks became the next king is to ignore how all of the previous kings became the king: through conquest and land confiscation of the previous king. No other nation can make the claim of vanquishing and replacing Rome. Only the Ottoman Turks can.

If the 7th king and next king of the north is symbolic of the UK/USA, how are they supposed to have symbolically conquered and replaced Rome long after Rome no longer existed?

The kings of the north and the list of 8 kings (beginning with the 4th) are the same kings, "and yet the scripture cannot be nullified." (Jn 10:35) To turn away from that is not logical or scriptural.

The May 2020 Watchtower (p. 2) says this:

"To understand the prophecy recorded in Daniel chapter 11, we need to keep in mind that it identifies only rulers and governments that have had a direct influence on God’s people."

If the term "God's People" refers to Jehovah's witnesses, and since they are in every country of the world, then every country in the world has "had a direct influence" on them. Does that mean that every country in the world can be the next king after Rome?

For instance, if you live in South Korea you may think that North Korea is the next king since that is who has been causing you trouble. Or if you live in a different Asian country you may think that China is the next king since they have been causing trouble to their south for a very long time. North Korea and China have been banning and persecuting and even killing Jehovah's Witnesses all along. Even Canada has persecuted Jehovah's Witnesses in that country in the past, and it is a northern kingdom.

Bible prophecy fulfilled through history does not lead to any of those countries, so they cannot be the next king of the north or the 7th king in the list. Merely persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses does not qualify them. The same goes for UK/USA.

For the right country to be identified, end-time conditions cannot be the only identifier. If you tried to identify the end-time king by bad treatment of JW's here in the last days, the list of countries would be long. No, that reasoning does not line up with scripture.

Every king in all of those lists conquered the previous king and took over its land. The king that conquered Rome, took its land, dominated God's people, was eventually driven off, and in the end it will attack Gods people along with its helpers. (Joel 2:20) This triggers Armageddon.

Has there been only one king who has caused Jehovah's Witnesses problems all around the world? Will that one king attack JW's in every country when the time comes? If the prophecy is only about that one king attacking Jehovah's Witnesses in his own land (with helpers), how does that align with the description that he will leave his land and invade the land of God's people if it only happens in the land of that king? How would others help him attack us in his own land? What about all of the other JW's around the world? Saying that UK/USA is the next king doesn't add up. Yes, UK/USA is mentioned in Revelation 13:11 as the two horned wild beast, but it is not on any list of kings. It doesn't rise from conquering Rome. It ascends "out of the earth".

If you acknowledge all of those scriptures (see my article) that clearly tell us that Israel is God's chosen people, (see my article "Replacement Theology") and that though the majority of them are rejected by Jehovah because they have turned away from Him, a few (a remnant) return to Jehovah in the end and are saved, then all of the Bible prophecies work and make sense, without having to label most of them as symbolic and ignoring the ones that don't work with the scripturally baseless replacement theology ideal which the majority (if not all) of Christendom's churches claim applies to themselves.

As i point out in my article "The Prophecy of Joel", not all of the foreigners who rule the land of Israel treated them badly. But they still held dominion over them and taxed them. According to Joel, the last empire to hold dominion over Israel (after Rome) is driven away back north. (Joel 2:20) No other nation on earth meets that description other than the Ottoman empire, called Turkey today.

If the label of "God's people" is supposed to be symbolic and represent all Jehovah's Witnesses today, when did UK/USA hold dominion over all JW's around the world, then get driven back north out of their land? They didn't. The description doesn't fit, not even symbolically.

If your argument is that this cannot be referring to the Jews because they are a rejected people replaced by Jehovah's Witnesses, Paul disagrees with you:

(Romans 11:1, 2) I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. ² God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.

(That is one of many scriptures that tell us the same thing. See my article.)

Christ himself even said that the trampling of Jerusalem would end when the appointed times of the nations ended.

(Luke 21:24) And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

When did the appointed times of the nations end? By the end of WW1. Jehovah's Witnesses were not trampled on until the end of the appointed times. Most of their persecution began about that time. Applying that prophecy (and the other parallel prophecies) to JW's doesn't work, either physically or symbolically. But those prophecies do work when applied to Israel.

With world war one those that were trampling Jerusalem (Ottoman Turks) were driven off and the area was then controlled by the British empire. The Brits did not trample Israel, but protected it. Then in 1948 they turned Israel over to self rule. So the trampling of Israel stopped when the Turks were driven back north to their homeland in WW1 where they remain to this today.

Here are the words of Jehovah Himself:

(Isaiah 43:1) Now this is what Jehovah says, Your Creator, O Jacob, the One who formed you, O Israel: “Do not be afraid, for I have repurchased you. I have called you by your name. You belong to me.

(Joel 3:2) I will also gather together all the nations And bring them down to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat. I will enter into judgment with them there In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.

(Those are two of many scriptures that tell us the same thing.)

While Jesus was still on earth, after he became the Messiah and Christ, the Jewish high priest was given divine foreknowledge of what was to come:

(John 11:49-52) But one of them, Caʹia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: “You do not know anything at all, ⁵⁰ and you have not reasoned that it is to your benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people rather than for the whole nation to be destroyed.” ⁵¹ He did not say this, however, of his own originality, but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was to die for the nation, ⁵² and not only for the nation but also to gather together into one the children of God who were scattered about.

Are all Jews acceptable? No.

(Zechariah 13:8, 9) “And in all the land,” declares Jehovah, “Two parts in it will be cut off and perish; And the third part will be left remaining in it.  ⁹ And I will bring the third part through the fire; And I will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people,’ And they will say, ‘Jehovah is our God.’”

(Romans 9:27-29) Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved. ²⁸ For Jehovah will make an accounting on the earth, concluding it and cutting it short.” ²⁹ Also, just as Isaiah foretold: “Unless Jehovah of armies had left an offspring to us, we should have become just like Sodʹom, and we should have resembled Go·morʹrah.”

(Romans 11:4-5) Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” ⁵ So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness.

What did Jesus say about himself?

(Matthew 27:11) Jesus now stood before the governor, and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say it.”

(John 18:33, 34) So Pilate entered the governor’s residence again and called Jesus and said to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” ³⁴ Jesus answered: “Are you asking this of your own originality, or did others tell you about me?”

(John 19:21) However, the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate: “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that he said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’”

Would Jesus refer to himself, or even allow others to refer to him as "the King of the Jews" if the Jews were a people rejected by God?

(Romans 3:1-4) What, then, is the advantage of the Jew, or what is the benefit of circumcision? ² A great deal in every way. First of all, that they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God. ³ What, then, is the case? If some lacked faith, will their lack of faith invalidate the faithfulness of God? ⁴ Certainly not! But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar, just as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”

When the law is referred to, it is talking about the Jewish Mosaic Law.

(Matthew 5:17) “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.

(Romans 3:28-31) For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. ²⁹ Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. ³⁰ Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. ³¹ Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Not at all! On the contrary, we uphold law.

Why do i bring this up? Because if the Jews had been rejected as a whole, then their law would also have been rejected. But Jesus did not abolish or destroy the law. He upheld and fulfilled that law.

When a Jew asked Christ what he must do to gain everlasting life, he referred them back to the Mosaic Law. (Mt 19:16-19; Mr 10:17-19; Lu 10:25-28; 18:18-20)

Many times in the past Jehovah became displeased with the Jews and He allowed or even caused tribulation to befall them, but once they repented and returned to Him, He then returned to them. The Bible tells us it will happen again at Armageddon.

So it was not the Jews as a people or a nation that were rejected, but only those who had turned away from Jehovah.

Then why didn't Jesus just fix what was broken with the Jewish leadership? Or point out any corruption and sinfulness of the current leadership and have his apostles take over as the new Jewish leaders?

(Matthew 9:17) Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

Though there are many similarities, like old and new wine, the Christian way and the Jewish way are not quite compatible. Consider that Christ condemned their distorted application of the law, but did not condemn the law itself:

(Luke 14:3-6) So in response Jesus asked those versed in the Law and the Pharisees: “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath or not?” ⁴ But they kept silent. With that he took hold of the man, healed him, and sent him away. ⁵ Then he said to them: “Who of you, if his son or bull falls into a well, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?” ⁶ And they were not able to reply to this.

Besides, they are God's people and He gave them a set of laws to obey. But Christ wanted his followers to follow a slightly different set of rules, ones that would conflict with the Mosaic law.

I am glad that all of those end-time prophecies about "God's people" do not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses. If they did that would mean that only a minority of JW's would be acceptable, and the rest would be destroyed at Armageddon.

If you wish to believe that the Jews as a people are rejected, and that Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones spoken about in prophecy and that they are the ones that will be attacked by a king all around the world; or if you think i am right in my understanding of scripture, it doesn't really matter. Accurate knowledge is not a deciding factor as to who makes it through Armageddon.

What matters is your heart condition, backed up by actions. (see my article "Who will survive Armageddon") Are you a sheep or a goat? Are you righteous or unrighteous? Those are the requirements for survival. Nothing else.

Jehovah only wants good people living on His earth forever. Our conscience helps with that identification.

(Romans 2:15) They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.

If we are unrepentantly doing what we think is wrong, we are a goat. If we try to do what we think is right, we are a sheep. Accurate knowledge does not apply. That will come later, after Armageddon.

(1 Corinthians 13:12) For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.

But i still strive for the most accurate of knowledge that i can gain. That is what gives me joy.

:^)
Dave

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(From J) 06-07-2021

Hey Dave, I just got this, and I haven't went through it yet, I'm about to, but 1 thing I note in the first sentence is the linking of the king of the north with the 8 kings. 

I noticed that before too and I'm not sure if you talk about it further, but what does the king of the north have to do with the 8 kings?

I may be missing something, or, I just might have a wrong idea about it all in general, but I just don't see how you link these two things that in my mind have nothing to do with each other.

Yes, there is a king of the north and yes, there is a king of the south, but other then them being top world governments at the time, they have nothing to do with the 8 kings other then one or the other could (but not necessarily one of the line of kings running until the end) be one of the 8 kings, well, 5 kings from Daniel's image, or the 7 from Ezekiel, plus the UN who only gets its power from the current world governments.

So, basically what I'm asking is, why do you multiple times talk of the king of the north and the run of world powers in the same breath as to me, they don't really typify or correlate to one another directly as there do not have to be 7 or 8 kings of the north and 7 or 8 kings of the south, but only 7, or 8, world powers?

Hope you understand the question, lol.

--

See, like here, you said,

If the 7th king and next king of the north is symbolic of the UK/USA, how are they supposed to have symbolically conquered and replaced Rome long after Rome no longer existed?

Why do you call UK/US as king of the north? The US/UK are king of the south, and some of the other world powers, like Egypt were king of the south, but still, south or north, does not mean world power. Like, Germany was never a world power, but they were a king of the north.

--

Jehovah's witnesses are in every country of the world. Therefore every country in the world has "had a direct influence on God’s people." Does that mean that every country in the world can be the next king after Rome?

No, does it have to mean that every country because JWs are in every country, no, all the prophecy states is that the governments of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, MP, Greece, and Rome all attacked God's people of that time.

So, up until Pentecost 33, the Jews were those people persecuted by those governments, then after Pentecost 33, God's people changed from the Jews in Isreal to the Spiritual Jews of Isreal, the Christians who started being persecuted by Rome starting with Nero.

Then, from then on, the World Powers of the day, not king of the north or south, the world powers after Pentecost 33, would therefore attack true Christians, who after 100CE could no longer be recognized until the separating work began in 1919 where the world power of the time, which happened to be king of the south started attacking true Christians starting at that time by things like putting all the JW leadership in jail, banning work, books, etc.

At that same time, after 1919, the Soviet Union, which happened to be king of the north also attacked true Christians by sending them to places like Siberia work camps, etc.

The Bible talks of the World powers attacking God's people, not the king of the north or south, per say.

While Egypt was King of the south, the king of the north, of that time, was not recorded as persecuting Gods people, that I know of.

Its the world power, the head of gold, the beast and arms of silver.... that are said to attack Gods people. I'm not even sure that the Soviet Union, or Germany before it, which were kings of the north, BUT NOT A WORLD POWER, had any bearing on Bible prophecy when they attacked God's people as according to the Bible, only the world powers did that, unless I'm missing something.

I also do not see anywhere where the Bible states which world powers are kings of the north or south other then saying, during the time the earthly kingdom of Israel was the center and countries to the north of Israel were kings of the north and countries south of Israel were kings of the south, but, that ended at Pentecost 33.

As for the Ottoman Empire, as they were after 33 CE, did they ever attack Gods People? 

Publications clearly state that from 100 CE until 1919 there were no discernible King of the North or King of the South. It clearly states that the US/UK only became the king of the south after 1919, so, previous to that, so, between 100 CE and 1919 there were no discernible Gods People on earth, so, no true Christians to attack between that time, so no discernible  king of the north or south, so the Ottoman Empire could not be included at all.

I'm not sure if you thought about that or not, but let me know what you think because as far as I can discern, all the kings stopped in 100ce (approx- once John died and apostasy took over) and only started again once Gods people were discernible starting in 1919.

J

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(From me) 06-07-21

I just don't see how you link these two things that in my mind have nothing to do with each other.

Here is the reason i speak about the list of 8 kings and the kings of the north as the same:

Revelation Daniel 11:1-3 Daniel 7:4-7 Daniel 2:32

Egypt

Assyria

Babylon Babylon Babylon

Medo-Persia Medo-Persia Medo-Persia Medo-Persia

Greece Greece Greece Greece

Rome Rome Rome Rome

When Daniel began his list of the kings of the north, the Egyptian, Assyrian, and Babylonian empires had already been defeated. So the prophecy begins during the reign of the Medo-Persian empire by Darius the Mede, who had Daniel thrown into the lion's den. (Da 11:1) When Daniel wrote the other two prophecies, the Babylon empire was still in control.

In Daniel chapter 11 he doesn't just list the empires but tells about the men who will rule those empires, while Revelation just lists the empires themselves. It is like if Revelation would say "The United States of America" but Daniel would list all of the men who became president of the USA.

Daniel first tells of the men that will rule Medo-Persia, then the men that will rule Greece, and then he tells of Alexander the Great who would rule Rome. Those empires are the same ones in the list of 8 kings in Revelation 17:10-11. It is also the same list for the beasts of Daniel 7:4-7 and the parts of the immense image at Daniel 2:32.

Daniel's extensive details in chapter 11 also include the king of the north's adversary, the king of the south (Egypt), but he is inconsequential as seen by how he is not present in Daniel's other lists. Egypt had its time in the sun, and that was as the first king in Revelation's list.

All of those lists are prophecies about the same list of kings through history. So of course i speak of them as the same.

--

Germany was .... a king of the north.

What scriptures give you that indication?

--

You make several claims in your final words starting from:

No, does it have to mean that every country because JWs are in every country...

Please provide the scriptures that back up that information.

Countless people have written books about their personal opinion as to Bible prophecy and its modern fulfillment, but for me to believe it i need scriptural backing.

I am really enjoying our discussion and am looking forward to your response!

:^)

Dave

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