A Lesson Hard Learned - Comments

(B)

I like the point around Colossians 3:23 that we abrogate our responsibility when we subject ourselves to the GB.

What made you think of the saying prayers for others? 

It's it the way the GB and others say I will keep you in my our prayers?

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(me)

What made you think of the saying prayers for others addition? 

A few years ago i started to become uneasy giving thanks for the meal for me and my wife.

I knew the Bible said that we were all equal before God (Ga 3:28), so i spoke with my wife and we talked about it, and we agreed that it would be more in line with God's way of thinking for each to thank God personally for our food.

Even when Jesus "gave thanks" in the upper room (Lu 22:19), it doesn't say that his prayer took the place of the prayers of the apostles.

When he "gave thanks" with the large crowd that were seated on the grass, it does not say that he yelled out the prayer for all to hear. (Mr 8:6)

At Acts 27:35 Paul "gave thanks" before them all, but not for them.

Yes, Paul says that a husband is head of his wife at Eph 5:23 and that would imply saying her prayer for her at the table, but i think that is just another example of Paul being sexist.

If it was that way, wouldn't Jesus have said something about it? (crickets)

God made woman as a helper and complement, not to be a servant or a subordinate. (Ge 2:18-24)

If i was helping you do a job, i would be your helper, but that would not make me your servant.

And if i had a skill-set that you didn't have pertaining to the job, that would make me a complimentary (suitable) helper for you.

Domination of a husband over his wife was a result of sin (Ge 3:6) which meant that Adam did not dominate Eve before that.

Man and woman are the same flesh (Ge 2:23), and when they get married they become one. (Mt 19:6) That also tells me they are equals

:^)

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(B)

Paul did speak about knowing when to say amen after hearing someone else pray 1 cor 14:16

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(me)

Thank you!!

That is what i want, either scriptures that prove me wrong, or scriptures that others would use to try and counter my hypothesis.

(1 Corinthians 14:12-19) So also with you, since you eagerly desire the gifts of the spirit, seek to abound in gifts that will build up the congregation. ¹³ Therefore, let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. ¹⁴ For if I am praying in a tongue, it is my gift of the spirit that is praying, but my mind is unproductive. ¹⁵ What is to be done, then? I will pray with the gift of the spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praise with the gift of the spirit, but I will also sing praise with my mind. ¹⁶ Otherwise, if you offer praise with a gift of the spirit, how will the ordinary person in your midst say “Amen” to your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? ¹⁷ True, you are giving thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up. ¹⁸ I thank God that I speak in more tongues than all of you do. ¹⁹ Nevertheless, in a congregation I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might also instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:12-19 is talking about gifts of the spirit.

Like when the spirit prompts someone to speak out in a different tongue, or to speak out with praise.

If it is in a different tongue, the hearers that do not speak that language will be built up by the workings of the spirit, but they will not know what was said.

But if the spirit prompts them to speak or sing out praise in their own tongue, then they can say "amen" (so be it, I agree) because they understand what the one under the power of the spirit is saying.

That tells me that that verse is not talking about prayer at a meeting like JW's have at the beginning and end.

Also, if you do a search in the Bible for "amen", you will see that it is not used to close prayers.

Do you disagree?

:^)

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(B)

No I don't disagree.

I see the point you make.

Paul was referring to people saying something great in another language that you would love to say "so be it" if you understood.

What about when Jesus prayed at the last supper.

That sweet an example.

The disciples did ask him how to pray.

Solomon prayed aloud at the temple inauguration.

These are kind of one off occasions though.

Jesus always gave thanks when there was food?? 

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(me)

It says Jesus gave thanks for the bread.

It does not say that he was saying the prayer on behalf of the others.

Other scriptures refer to many praying at once, which could indicate that they were not praying silently, and that one person was not praying for all in attendance. (Ac 12:12)

When Jesus told them how to pray, he did not say to do it silently. (Mt 6:9-15)

So perhaps when Jesus gave thanks he was speaking audibly, but not for the others.

Or perhaps he DID say his prayer silently, but they saw him close his eyes and bow his head, and since they could not hear his prayer they asked how to pray.

If they could hear him pray, would they need to ask how to pray?

I looked at every version of pray in WtLib and found no instance where it says that anyone was letting others say their prayer for them.

(if you search for pray* the apostrophe prompts it to give you every word that begins with pray)

:^)

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(B)

Jesus example does teach us to thank Jehovah for our food.

Praying for everyone each time doesn't always feel right to me.

I mean we don't have to necessarily go into anything more than "thank you for the food". But when there's a group you feel pressured to say more. Which might therefore not be sincere.

We eat three times a day. It comes around quickly.

Other considerations are when you have young children that need an example.

Also I just thought of the situation where a sister is to wear a head covering?? 

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(me)

Jesus example does teach us to thank Jehovah for our food.

Yes it does.

when there's a group you feel pressured to say more.

They have been indoctrinated to allow (and even count on) others to say their prayers for them.

Since you do not know what another person wants or needs to say to Jehovah, they naturally want you to say more so that it includes their desires.

So many times the prayer is disappointing to them, and may even include things they disagree with.

But if we said our own prayers, we would say all that we want, and it would be sincere.

Other considerations are when you have young children that need an example.

Yes, a good example can teach a young child how to pray for themselves.

Also I just thought of the situation where a sister is to wear a head covering??

And who said that a woman must wear a head covering?

(hint: it wasn't Jesus) (see my article "Appointed by holy spirit")

:^)

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(B)

Paul would say the spirit taught him those things??

Of course too, it's not only the witnesses that pray on behalf of others. 

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(me)

Paul would say the spirit taught him those things??

But he didn't say that.

He said it was a tradition of men that he passed on to the congregations. (1Co 11:2)

Jesus condemns traditions of men. (Mt 15:6; Mr 7:4, 13)

Of course too, it's not only the witnesses that pray on behalf of others.

Yes, many practices not taught by Christ have permeated his Christian fold.

:^)

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(B)

Wow, check this out.

It corroborates what you are saying.

https://2001translation.org/notes/origin

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(me)

"Wow" is right.

Whoever wrote that article is reaching

So Jehovah is not in charge of Jesus?

Jehovah is the "head" on Jesus' shoulders?

That smells of the Trinity to me.

No, looking at the context, Paul is CLEARLY saying that Jehovah rules Christ, that Christ rules man, and that man rules woman, and that man is superior to woman.

(1 Corinthians 11:7-9) For a man should not have his head covered, as he is God’s image and glory, but the woman is man’s glory. ⁸ For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man. ⁹ And what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man.

That was the tradition of the Jews, and Paul promoted it.

(Galatians 1:14) and I (Paul) was making greater progress in Juʹda·ism than many of my own age in my nation, as I (Paul) was far more zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Paul clearly did not give up all of those traditions.

He even tells us the source of those verses. (1Co 11:2)

Like Paul, you seem to be clinging to the traditions of men (Mr 7:3) that were passed on to you by the GB regarding the relationship that women have with God.

:^)

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(B)

Ha ha.

No, I am just interested in the thought that meaning of the word could have changed.

Source and head are similar anyway.

Jehovah is the source of Jesus, Jesus the source of Adam col 1:16, Adam is source of Eve.

That's not Trinity 

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(me)

Ha!!

Don't even try to make excuses.

I'm going to tell your wife that you like to rule over her.

Oh, you are gonna be in trouble.

:^)

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(B)

Scary man 😬

It's the other end of the day for me 😴

How's that for an excuse 🙂

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(me)

Sleep well.

:^)

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